I am not sure about the rest of members here but I think the shoe that shian is making fitting me perfectly. I think I joined the crowed that shian refers to as motherfuckers by receiving a " Kodak browny8 "some 50 years ago. From that night onwards I have been trying to make a good movie and Lord knows I have done all I could including but not limited to cleaning the toilets of trailers around the film village and getting the latest cameras I could afford. I couldn't even imagine my efforts in pursuit of film making could be the cause of lamenting for some - in this case shian. We were all considered a new breed of film makers at a certain point. Some of us like shian turned out OK ! A lot of those used funny ideas for camera like a hacked GH2 ! There is nothing wrong with new breeds and indi cameras. They don't deserve to be looked down upon by anybody. In fact I have never heard Roger Deakins addressing anybody the way shian does. Go figure.

Well, regardless of shian's lament - I am going to buy that BMPC at 4k@$4k and continue to practice the craft. For sure I won't have the 16+ DR but in the level of motherfucker film makers I have to survive with the little I can afford.

I love to see some work shian has done - especially the items itimjim is referring to. Perhaps I could learn something. There was nothing on IMDB for " shian " where ever I looked.

+1 @no_surrender I've not seen anyone master the GH2 as well as @shian in a narrative film making production way. He knows his light, and he knows the cameras constraints and the boy knows colour.

I didn't call you an idiot or a moron. If you lumped yourself in with them, that's you reading my post completely wrong. I was merely explaining the advantage of the wider DR, and lamenting that there will be a whole new breed of idiots buying $4000 4K cams and shooting absolute shit, and calling themselves cinematographers.

THOSE idiots poison the well. The reason producers want the world, and they want it for free [but offer killer sandwiches and screen credit http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/5794/the-state-of-indie-production/p1] is because of the dumb motherfuckers I was referring to. Not you... unless of course the shoe fits. I didn't say it did. You just decided I was taking to you.

Vic, let it go. You are wasting you time with this guy. He clearly thinks he knows me, and neither you nor I can disuade him from his opinion.

Anyone who's ever sat and talked with me knows that I try to be fair. I've called RED arrogant and greedy before [just yesterday I think] I've blasted BMD, and Panasonic... no one is safe from my wrath when stupid shit is perpetrated. I have no loyalties, no sponsors. I'm excited to see technology move forward. Hell I can do amazing things with 5.6 stops of DR, 16 is gravy... makes my job a hell of a lot easier. I don't have to stress as much. I like what's coming out of The Dragon development because it opens up new possibilities. And I lament this new technology because it benefits those who have not worked at their craft, and who poison the well.

@010101 Not sure if you're trolling here, though it does appear so but are you familiar with Shian at all? I wouldn't call him a huge RED supporter. I've seen him praise the GH2 more. Why does every damn thread come to this? I bet if people we're sitting face to face instead of hiding behind computer screens most of this shit wouldn't happen.

@Shian, Wooow - spoken like an average RED USER just out of the RED BARN.

I'm not sure if it's the RED that attracts people with little regards for others or the people with no regards for others get attracted to RED. No matter what that RED barn stinks. That said I'm sure there must be a an explanation for your kind of behaviour.

It's just a camera doood ! take it easy.

A RED camera is a great camera. Was able to do great stuff before others. Will be doing great stuff but it is by no means a magic wand. For sure it does not make you a superior film maker to the guy shooting BMD or 16mm cam.

Well, there we have it. I knew there is a hope for morons and idiot film makers like me. According to " shian " with 16+ DR, we are all in. Just make sure you are not caught with that dumb BMD 4K, finally get a grip on that 3-point lighting and definitely get yourself one of those $50,000 +++ RED cameras with the magic 16+ DR.

According to Wikipedia average human eyes have the DR of 10-14 and the mighty Kodak Vision3 has the Wopping DR of 13. Endless list of masterpiece movies were made on FILM with DR of 8-14 and enjoyed by millions of eyes and brains could resolve DR of 8-15.

As somebody mentioned on this thread, great work could be done even on 16mm film today and many days to come. Crappy movies could be done on a device with 16+ DR. Although that crappy 16+ DR footage could be coloured more efficiently - that's given.

It's just another golden tool in the belt that many can not afford. I save my money, make sure stay away from " Falling Down " and do my humble work with that BMD 4K and I'm not afraid of looking like a moron because I am " the one ".

Well, think of it this way - In full daylight here on planet earth our human eyes can process about 22-24 stops of light total - depending on our individual visual sensitivity, but only 10-14 at any given time [without adjusting our iris]. So when we have 24 stops of light on our cameras, we'll be capable of shooting scenes without adding light unless we choose to; to add or create a mood or style. A good example would be to black out your windows making a room completely dark, then try to expose your camera to the outdoors in full sunlight through an open door, if properly exposed the interior of your room will be almost black if not completely black. BUT our eyes will still see detail where the camera, even at 14 stops, sees little or none. The added DR will allow the camera to not only pick up a wider range of light, but little nuances like tiny highlights, or the falloff between 2 light values in a way that more resembles the way our eyes do.

So on top of that, what 16+ stops really gives you is room for error. It is more forgiving. You can capture a wider range of light, but you can also fudge the exposure a bit.

For instance, I LOVE underexposing skin tones. I love the look of it. But I can't do it on a DSLR with any kind of consistency because of the noise factor. I can do this on cameras with more DR because they will forgive me for doing so. My highlights won't blow, and my shadows won't crush into nothing, and I can, in post, do some interesting things to the image.

YES the wider the DR; the more idiot proof cameras become. Meaning even morons with no cinematography skill at all can acquire decently exposed images that a colorist like me can make look pretty [see Life of Pi for examples]. So, I really see a movement coming where cinematographers will begin focusing more on what creative composition does to the viewers mind, and less on color and exposure. The truth is most people don't value good Cinematography, and can't tell the difference between something that was shot with careful intent, and stuff shot by a moron. And we'll soon see even more morons with BMD 4K cams who couldn't explain something as simple as 3-point lighting to you to save their lives, making shitty movies with no heart or plot, and slapping the Cinematographer qualifier after their names.

[anybody ever see that movie with Michael Douglas - "Falling Down"? If you see me on CNN, reenacting it at some point - the above paragraph will be the reason why.]

@shian, as an expert colourist / ProShooter can you estimate in an average flick, how many scenes could use or perhaps need the 16+ DR and can not be done without that kind of DR? Are we able to project all that DR onto the screen and perhaps on OLED television ? And at last ,did they have that kind of DR while shooting the the GREAT PICTURES on film ?

How can you compare the BMCC4k to this camera? The Black Magic runs $4K, this camera runs $45000+. I don't see how anyone should compare these cameras.

Dynamic range is falling all the time. Actually the guy in the video is unsure as to what the dynamic range is as they still are conducting tests - 16+ stops is pretty amazing though.

I'm excited.... can u tell?

http://www.red.com/products/epic-dragon#tech-specs

16.5 stops of DR (still testing could end up over 17)<

Native ISO 1600-2000 (still testing) Clean up to 6400<

All new compression options, and bigger SSD Mags<

100fps at 6K<

200fps at 4K<

Global Shutter Add on with variable ND by replacing old PL mount with new ($4500)<

$29,000 brain only new<

$9,500 upgrade from Epic X<