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RED EPIC DRAGON [finally a reality]
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  • Looks like 20 stops of DR then for Dragon and goodbye Scarlet upgrades to the new sensor as it needs serious power. :-(

    http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92158-Enter-the-Dragon

    To put this into perspective, the Arri Alexa and current Red Epic resolve around 13.5 - 14 stops, the Sony F65 has 14 stops, the GH3 resolves, at best, 10 stops.

  • Let's say that I'm not a current Red owner, What is the supposed cost of an Epic- Dragon brain?

  • A base Epic is, $19,000 now so likely $30,000-$35,000 for the Dragon. Which means battle tested Scarlet will likely be available for a discount with all the trade-ins that will happen. Always an upside. :)

  • That's for sure!

  • I know that it's not an everyday realistic kind of camera, but I have found that grading the Sony F65 to be the closest thing to if not surpassing film. It's 8K sensor and F65 gamut really do work exceedingly well. I don't understand why more people are not using it yet. I know this is from their marketing site but in my visual opinion and testing it appears to be pretty close.

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  • @bueller I may have to go down to Division and test one. I haven't seen anything out of it yet that impresses me, but it could just be the person(s) and their subsequent settings and decisions with it that are lacking.

  • Well color me impressed.

  • @Shian we shot some stuff out near Joshua Tree (It's the footage of the girl in the western looking town that is now part of the Davinci 9 manual) it was really a treat and a half to grade. I, like you am also horrified by most of the stuff that I see online shot with it (it's almost like a conspiracy theory). I think in the hands of somebody such as yourself you would find it in a league that you didn't even know existed. I am also grading full its full raw 4k in real time on Davinci (though the system I am using is pretty wacked out).

  • @driftwood Well, it's more like 18+ stops of dynamic range, really.

    I'm waiting to see some real images from the dragon sensor before I join the hype. Right now the F65 is really blowing me away with its color gamut. Will be interesting to see how the dragon's colors stack up to that.

  • Isn´t the f55 supposed to have the same color gamut as the f65? Seems like a darling rental a year from now.. Relatively small, great high speed options.. global shutter.

    Until the Dragon is in a camera, working, it´s only a tell tale.

    Looking forward to these new options – I can´t stand the alexa look any more.. (And then I´m not talking about footage that actually is graded/colored properly).

  • I'm excited.... can u tell?

    http://www.red.com/products/epic-dragon#tech-specs

    16.5 stops of DR (still testing could end up over 17)<

    Native ISO 1600-2000 (still testing) Clean up to 6400<

    All new compression options, and bigger SSD Mags<

    100fps at 6K<

    200fps at 4K<

    Global Shutter Add on with variable ND by replacing old PL mount with new ($4500)<

    $29,000 brain only new<

    $9,500 upgrade from Epic X<

    image

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  • Dynamic range is falling all the time. Actually the guy in the video is unsure as to what the dynamic range is as they still are conducting tests - 16+ stops is pretty amazing though.

  • WOW....speechless. -Note to self make more money so you can afford this.

    Not factoring in price....this makes the BMCC 4k look like a child's toy.

  • How can you compare the BMCC4k to this camera? The Black Magic runs $4K, this camera runs $45000+. I don't see how anyone should compare these cameras.

  • @vicharris

    Why not? You can use them to film same cat you so much love :-)

  • @shian, as an expert colourist / ProShooter can you estimate in an average flick, how many scenes could use or perhaps need the 16+ DR and can not be done without that kind of DR? Are we able to project all that DR onto the screen and perhaps on OLED television ? And at last ,did they have that kind of DR while shooting the the GREAT PICTURES on film ?

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev You've never seen cat whiskers till you've seen them at 6K with 17 stops of DR!!!

  • Well, think of it this way - In full daylight here on planet earth our human eyes can process about 22-24 stops of light total - depending on our individual visual sensitivity, but only 10-14 at any given time [without adjusting our iris]. So when we have 24 stops of light on our cameras, we'll be capable of shooting scenes without adding light unless we choose to; to add or create a mood or style. A good example would be to black out your windows making a room completely dark, then try to expose your camera to the outdoors in full sunlight through an open door, if properly exposed the interior of your room will be almost black if not completely black. BUT our eyes will still see detail where the camera, even at 14 stops, sees little or none. The added DR will allow the camera to not only pick up a wider range of light, but little nuances like tiny highlights, or the falloff between 2 light values in a way that more resembles the way our eyes do.

    So on top of that, what 16+ stops really gives you is room for error. It is more forgiving. You can capture a wider range of light, but you can also fudge the exposure a bit.

    For instance, I LOVE underexposing skin tones. I love the look of it. But I can't do it on a DSLR with any kind of consistency because of the noise factor. I can do this on cameras with more DR because they will forgive me for doing so. My highlights won't blow, and my shadows won't crush into nothing, and I can, in post, do some interesting things to the image.

    YES the wider the DR; the more idiot proof cameras become. Meaning even morons with no cinematography skill at all can acquire decently exposed images that a colorist like me can make look pretty [see Life of Pi for examples]. So, I really see a movement coming where cinematographers will begin focusing more on what creative composition does to the viewers mind, and less on color and exposure. The truth is most people don't value good Cinematography, and can't tell the difference between something that was shot with careful intent, and stuff shot by a moron. And we'll soon see even more morons with BMD 4K cams who couldn't explain something as simple as 3-point lighting to you to save their lives, making shitty movies with no heart or plot, and slapping the Cinematographer qualifier after their names.

    [anybody ever see that movie with Michael Douglas - "Falling Down"? If you see me on CNN, reenacting it at some point - the above paragraph will be the reason why.]

  • @shian Digital introduced a transfer of work from the scene to the computer ! In a way , colorists take a part of the cinematographer job. More DR means less work on scene but the DP is still the man with a vision ,his job is now partly on scene and partly in the back of the colorist(at least regarding the exposure).We can easily imagine a 25 Stops Camera recording a scene and all lights applied in post like pixar do in animation...but even in this case you need a vision. At least there's still a need for composition and camera movement on scene till robots camera enter the game... so lets have fun and ride this Red Dragon.

  • Well, there we have it. I knew there is a hope for morons and idiot film makers like me. According to " shian " with 16+ DR, we are all in. Just make sure you are not caught with that dumb BMD 4K, finally get a grip on that 3-point lighting and definitely get yourself one of those $50,000 +++ RED cameras with the magic 16+ DR.

    According to Wikipedia average human eyes have the DR of 10-14 and the mighty Kodak Vision3 has the Wopping DR of 13. Endless list of masterpiece movies were made on FILM with DR of 8-14 and enjoyed by millions of eyes and brains could resolve DR of 8-15.

    As somebody mentioned on this thread, great work could be done even on 16mm film today and many days to come. Crappy movies could be done on a device with 16+ DR. Although that crappy 16+ DR footage could be coloured more efficiently - that's given.

    It's just another golden tool in the belt that many can not afford. I save my money, make sure stay away from " Falling Down " and do my humble work with that BMD 4K and I'm not afraid of looking like a moron because I am " the one ".

  • Wow I missed your douchenozzle tone in the first post [shame on me], but caught it the second time around. Clearly you don't need any answers from me, and at some point you'd clearly love for me to kick you in the balls.

  • @Shian, Wooow - spoken like an average RED USER just out of the RED BARN.

    I'm not sure if it's the RED that attracts people with little regards for others or the people with no regards for others get attracted to RED. No matter what that RED barn stinks. That said I'm sure there must be a an explanation for your kind of behaviour.

    It's just a camera doood ! take it easy.

    A RED camera is a great camera. Was able to do great stuff before others. Will be doing great stuff but it is by no means a magic wand. For sure it does not make you a superior film maker to the guy shooting BMD or 16mm cam.

  • Sincerely from frame grabs I have seen of the Alexa, and having a D800 camera, beyond 14 will start to become difficult to work with. From this point for me you will have very high diminishing returns. Now with red I always wait for thorough testing because if it was for their claims, no camera would exist today because they would be better than anything else. Remember HDR, yes with the super magic motion!!! So lets wait and see. Another I have saw with red camera footage until now is the pink highlights. It is a bit the same that when you try to recover from raw photography software clip highlight and some channel is clipped before the rest. It still shows on gray charts but it is not very usable. Time will tell, I guess, if the claims are right.