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Z-CAM E2 camera is coming with 4K at 120fps
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  • The latest word is that they are likely to ship multiple versions of the camera with different mounts. Makes sense since there's relatively minimal effort to do so.

    And the incorrect declaration on cameras was nothing more than choosing the wrong import code - and it was completely appropriate for them to correct the error vs forcing users to do it.

    They're a small company, obviously, and are going to make some mistakes like the above as they grow.

    And you're right. Instead of relying on a bunch of professional users and amateur enthusiasts in the facebook group to give them feedback on what they want in a camera, they should blindly follow the suggestions of a person who doesn't even seem to shoot anything ever. :)

  • And the incorrect declaration on cameras was nothing more than choosing the wrong import code - and it was completely appropriate for them to correct the error vs forcing users to do it.

    Did not get meaning of this set of words.

    I repeat again - unqualified personnel imposed fees due to wrong declaration and CEO covered this, even after being told directly. It is long story as I had personal "pleasure" to see work of this same person.

    Instead of relying on a bunch of professional users and amateur enthusiasts in the facebook group to give them feedback on what they want in a camera, they should blindly follow the suggestions of a person who doesn't even seem to shoot anything ever. :)

    I hope you mean yourself here? :-)

    I told that making warm closed group at Facebook is one of the worst ever decision such company can do. As not only it greatly restrict input, but it also distort reality as you can't get proper honest feedback.

    BM forum can be not best place, but at least they made one after I repeatedly told them that it is stupid to have your forum to be owned by your direct competitor (again, people who responded for this had no idea about it).

  • I downloaded some shots here : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1496T8E0nWAIdx621XVsVJSYrzwEcFOpQ?fbclid=IwAR1KV-YRUWryqK6_G0MPpe17v4vnIV2cEGRIgvT9F_jKbSnR1Zb-yD5QXxU

    I am very surprised by the quality pictures, it's very impressive when you grade it in Davinci !

  • The facebook group is a joke. I immediately unfriended myself. It seems to be about 99% fanboys. An open forum would be far more user friendly...and knowledgeable....but I'd bet 10bucks they chose fb cause it was free. Of course, it is far from free. I still think it's a mistake to try to release 3 cameras at once, or even 2. Sony doesn't even do it. Of course, what do I know....actually alot about engineering. Just cause these cameras have the same form factor, although, and more importantly not the same physical nor same sensor size, doesn't mean that they don't need separate design and software teams. And I doubt they have that going for them. It's all a bit surreal...but if you've paid 2 grand of your hard earned cash, you might be persuaded to see some reality tv. I'd pay a buck to see their facilities.

  • The facebook group is a joke. I immediately unfriended myself. It seems to be about 99% fanboys. An open forum would be far more user friendly...and knowledgeable....but I'd bet 10bucks they chose fb cause it was free.

    Facebook group bad reach. Until you pay big buck.

    It's all a bit surreal...but if you've paid 2 grand of your hard earned cash, you might be persuaded to see some reality tv. I'd pay a buck to see their facilities.

    They want to see that will sell. This is my impression, may be wrong, but it is such.

    E2 had been attempt of engineers to make good camera and throw it on the market that can't consume big volume of such cameras.

    For example, same features camera, without fancy stuff like Ethernet and such, for 2-3 times less can sell like hot cakes. IF added some proper firmware and software.

  • @kurth Why would they need a completely different software (or hardware) team if the main difference between the cameras is the sensor?

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev Yes, I'm clearly the one of the two of us who doesn't ever actually seem to shoot anything so obviously that is what I meant.

    But otherwise, you're right. Using one of the most high-traffic sites on the internet to host their user group (currently about 2500 members with way more daily active users than this one) is crazy vs hosting some shitty forum themselves - which is what they were doing when the E1 shipped (and the forum barely ever had any users at all).

    And of course, you're also right that instead of asking their users what features they would like to see in a new camera and then building that camera, they should take your advice and just make a really cheap camera with a super low-bitrate codec (which they will apparently do by removing a $10 ethernet port from their $699 camera to make it a $499 camera) so that you can give them to the teams that you send to various camera shows. If they don't make exactly the camera that you (and pretty much only you) need/want, their company will go out of business within a year.

  • @eatstoomuchjam

    I like your sarcasm, especially as you do not understand that you talk about. But at least you have your head up and go through wall.

    It had been some guys like you who told how wrong I am and how fine are this X guys doing Y camera and how we need to just support them and they do all right. Strangely all of the times where I told about issues I had been right at the end.

    Z-CAM had good potential, but they have very little time left, another few errors and it'll be all done.

  • I understand what I'm talking about just fine, thanks.

    I never said we need to support anybody. If the product is good, we should get it. If the product is crap, we should not. I hated the E1. I like the E2 a lot. If they come out with a 6Kp60 follow-up which is of equal quality and at a decent price, I will like it a lot too and probably buy it - and others are likely to do so as well.

  • @eatstoomuchjam....they're not the same camera. They might have a similar form. Their design might even entail some scaling...but a different sensor and different physical size means that they are different beast. I'm not a software guy, but I'd imagine a different sensor would entail different fw. And if they are designing the cameras with just one team, then they'd be stretched to work on 3 parallel projects simultaneously. Anybody would be stretched. Cameras aren't plug-n-play, imho.

  • A lot better than GH5S (which is a VERY nice camera) in Daylight and in Slow motion (GH5S's slowmo are ugly). Now, I would like to found a true low light shot...

    If E2 can do it as well GH5S, I dive !

  • @kurth Jason has already said that 95% of the code is shared between the E2 series cameras already. The camera runs Linux. A number of low-level things (wifi/ethernet/etc) are handled by the OS. The camera-specific stuff is handled by an executable. I haven't gone in and looked in a while, but from what I remember, the startup script for that executable already tells it that it's using an IMX299 processor - so presumably it was built from the start to be flexible about which sensor it is talking to. I am a software guy and I can say that if software is properly designed, there's no reason that it can't be modular.

    Think about what the camera does - at a high level, it reads data from a sensor, debayers it, and applies a color correction matrix (I get that there's a bit more that's going on, but that's the general gist). That's sensor-specific. Which other part of a camera's software would need to be changed to work with a different sensor?

    "Cameras aren't plug-n-play" is a silly statement. At some point, computers weren't plug and play. Now they are. Now cameras are also computers, but they can't also be made flexible?

  • Saw the Z Cam E2 demonstrated tonight underwater:

    https://www.facebook.com/DavidCMPeterson/posts/2493324284033506

    Inside a Boxfish, developed right here in NZ just down the road from me! (literally the next train stop after mine)

  • Oh yeah - those guys put some pictures in the group. Their underwater housing looks crazy impressive!

  • CreoKinetics Ltd supplies camera systems for BBC's Top Gear and Amazon Prime's Grand Tour utilizing GH4's. GH5's, and now Zcam E2.

    “It’s kind of ideal and what I want out of a camera. I’m hoping to use it for in-car shoots; so where you might have three cameras, one for piece to camera, one over the shoulder and one POV. You can have them all rigged in to the vehicle and all going back to a controller brain and then from the tracking vehicle if I need to I can interrogate the cameras remotely. You can find out what they’re doing, what their status is, like the battery voltage, how much is left on the memory cards... in fact do anything, just as if I’m standing next to the camera. They could be driving at 150mph and I could still be able to tweak or change any settings I need to. “So you then could extend that network to three cars and have all six camera set-ups on a screen in front of you. You can then change any camera in any presenter’s car at any time.”

    https://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2019/2/18/z-cam-e2-camera

    http://www.creokinetics.com

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  • @jleo

    Yep, this is that this form factor is made for.

    Most funny is that our most heated debates with Z-Cam had been exactly as they DID NOT want to aim multi camera market. And DO NOT want to spend neccessary resources on their apps.

  • What are you talking about? The E2 specifically targets the multi-camera market, both with the ethernet port/e2 controller software and with the pixel-level master sync (which can apparently work with 36 cameras, judging by one of the setups they featured).

    As far as the apps, yes, it is obvious that you think that a lack of an Android app is somehow going to prevent them from selling cinema cameras... and they have committed to a better Android app, but it isn't their top priority. I guess their potential customers will have to go buy a BMPCC 4K or an Ursa for its excellent Android app. Oh yeah, about that...

  • @eatstoomuchjam

    We talk about different multi camera markets.

    Z-CAM design came from people who know a lot about multi camera work from VR cameras perspective mostly, and also from perspective of virtual camera solutions (multiple cameras and later using computation to make virtual camera footage), hence all the SDK they have and such. I can also count some industrial camera usage (Z-CAM had some talks about shipping to such areas, but I do not know if it had been any success yet).

    Also please stop adding your thoughts and telling that it is mine. Proper smartphone apps are important, but much more important is understanding how consumer related camera must look like now, how it must behave. How important are software features, remote control, easy consumer level work with many cameras.

    Z-CAM management is afraid about proper path, as they are afraid about changes in the company and possible changes in management that will follow. Change of direction could add managers who can manage large software teams and work with feedback outside closed facebook group. I think some of their actions are unconscious.

    I know that is going inside some Japanese companies and it is similar thing. Old management is afraid, want to stick to things where they are good, where it is safe. yes, it is worse and worse, but at least managers keep their positions. This is thing they are fighting for. This tensions will release in fall of few Japanese giants soon and whole industry will turn. Will be lot of pain and change of 80% of management.

  • Proper smartphone apps are somewhat important, but you missed my point about getting a Black Magic instead. As far as I remember, they don't even make smartphone apps for their extremely popular cameras (I see some third-party ones in the app store)... and the Z Cam iOS app is already excellent and easy to use.... though if by "consumer-friendly," you mean that a person who has never picked up a camera before can use it easily, I suppose not. That's not really their target market, though.

    The rest of your statements are opinions presented as facts and not worth responding to. If you're going to keep harping on the fact that the CEO has a professional background in smartphones, I'll just point out that in terms of running a camera company, you have no experience or background whatsoever.

  • @eatstoomuchjam

    Here we go again. I am not asking you to respond to anything, it is exactly you who started from direct personal attacks.

    I wrote things not about experience, but about why people do things they do. And first thing management system is doing is trying to keep stability and current course to save or improve their position.

  • E2 si not easy to grad. The image out of box is very beautiful but there is something that limit the grading. I don't know what precisely. I feel it's about how E2 compress the highlight hugely like a beast ! It's very different with Alexa and RED.

  • @eatstoomuchjam and @Vitaliy_Kiselev, it's very interesting to watch this holy war, but it's better to understand each other. Sorry, I'm not very good at English (I'm Russian). Well, just want to clarify something.

    First of all, I don't know any of you, so I can and will speak only in the abstract and apart from your personalities. I'm interested in the subject area of the discussion only.

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev, you said "Z-CAM management is afraid about proper path" - what path do you mean? Appealing to the manager's past experience makes sense, but does not prove anything, let's be honest.

    @eatstoomuchjam, I think, that there is no reason for Black Magic to make a mobile app. How do you want to use this app with BM cameras? Z-Cam E1 form-factor, for example, dictates the need for wireless control - imagine the situation, where E1 lays, for example, in a microwave oven. How can you start/stop recording without wireless control? :D

  • @storyboardcreativity

    it's very interesting to watch this holy war

    It is not war, it is just some personal things of one member that took such form.

    you said "Z-CAM management is afraid about proper path" - what path do you mean? Appealing to the manager's past experience makes sense, but does not prove anything, let's be honest.

    It makes lot of sense. As allow to understand reasons behind people actions.
    Almost every expirienced manager have priority list, and top priority for 90% of them is their position, at least maintaining this position (even they told you otherwise). Usually the higher the maneger is - the more important it is. Second in priorities list it is usually profits for owner. And all users reasons, engineering reasons are on much further places.

    that there is no reason for Black Magic to make a mobile app. How do you want to use this app with BM cameras?

    Reason is similar. BM can be used on drone, can be used remotely among many cameras, can be inside car during some stunt sequence and you literally can't reach controls.

  • Blackmagic does have an app for their cameras: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/blackmagic-camera-control/id1239292847

    It works with the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K, Ursa Mini Pro, and Ursa Broadcast.