Official Low GOP topic, series 2

lolo

so, for summary if i understand correctly i have read the entire thread just now and my head is xploding hahhaha

please correct me if i´m wrong, but please try to make a summary :), i´m speaking from the ignorance here, but with tons of good will :)

@driftwood patches
are good for:
the cinematic motion
the highest bitrate possible
(and he has tried several different ways to accomplish this)

the bads are:
they are noiser? (or make the grain of the sensor visible as the images are so low compress, by LevIC)
you can use only selected fast speed sd cards
file size is HUGE (by B3Guy)

@Stray & @bkmcwd
are looking for a more stable (than driftwood) and high bitrate 150mb and 88mb
that can be usable in every possible light condition, low light and sun light

@cbrandin patches
are the play safe for now with an improvement of the factory settings
in higher bitrates of commpression

am i right?

(updated with the corrected suggestion)

LevIC

@lolo well, I wouldn't say that driftwood's patches are noisier, but rather more accurate/detailed. It seems that the more compression you have, the more "smeared" the image looks, which gives you a smoother looking picture but with less detail. The GOP1 settings don't seem to have much compression which is what makes the image grain more visible.

This is just how it looks to me, not sure if 100% correct.

B3Guy

@lolo the main con is that file size is HUGE.

PerryWilson

@EOSHD way to stand up my friend, I understood what your blog was about as did we intelligent people. Keep up the amazing work my friend... You inspired me to go all in on a full set of LOMO primes, and I've never owned better glass... compares to the RPP's and masterprimes ive rented... but the look is just pure SEX...

@driftwood man dont kill yourself, but BRING IT ON... Ill stay with your patches to days end lol, I might just have to ad "driftwood: to my collection of cinematography tattoos :P

proaudio4

LevIC,
You are correct.

We are now seeing closer to what the sensor captures without the additional loss of more compression.
Like audio, video has a noise floor.
All digital cameras have noise. It's just the signal-to-noise on some are better than others.
The good thing is - we can now model noise better which offers more accurate removal, if you choose to.

Actually, what makes the GOP1 setting is what Stray just mentioned above: "the GOP1 does give is very different (arguably better) motion rendering, and less smeared noise (undoubtedly"

It's true, if you think you see more noise in driftwood's GOP1, it's due to you are now getting better motion rendering. IMO, this removes "some" of the subjective perception of GOP1, especially comparing to GOP12.
The only thing is perception while were observing motion. I'm a believer that GOP1 has visually better motion than GOP12 on the GH2. But the question I don't know is under motion, what size GOP at a given bitrate equals the same visual quality as one i-frame ?

Stray

@driftwood oh ffs I'm not trying to kill anything at all, stop being so bloody defensive. My 88M settings are finished and stable and have been for a while. GOP1 doesn't actually have greater image quality in post. Anyone can do the test themselves. http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/18767#Comment_18767

GOP1 has excellent motion rendering not improved image quality, thats all I'm saying, which you agree with judging by your reply. Its all about the motion. Everything else in that post was not a negative post about GOP1 per se. But about the differences between it and AVC-Intra. Chill out back, please. I don't want to have to reread my posts before I make them to make absolutely sure you can't possibly misread them as personal attacks every bloody time.

@lolo Yep pretty much, I'm looking for a slightly higher bitrate 1080i and 720p. bkmcwd has created an excellant 154M GOP3, which I think he's still tweaking to give better results under lowlight.

PixCanFly

@Stray Thanks for the 88M patch! I did some test today and everything was good until I started to film some workers mowing the lawn and the codec started to break. I'm using the sandisk xtreme pro 45mb. There were a lot of greens in the scene and the worker were swinging the grass cutter around. Camera playback failed, Ingest to FCP Pro Res shows the codec broke.

Stray

@pixCanFly Very weird, the patch has had the hell tested out of it and not only by me. I've shot heavy detail heavy motion shots for a pretty good time (3 minutes of trees in a strong wind) and not seen it break. Can you say what you mean by break exactly ?

edit : This is the low GOP topic though, its better to post this in the max quality thread, my 88M is not a low GOP setting.

PixCanFly

@Stray. I'll post in the max quality thread in a moment. Perhaps I'll try to upload a screen grab of the problem.
Thanks!

bkmcwd

@Stray
Since I tested my latest 154M 3GOP Q10 setting a few outdoor today, I report a result.
The test recording many leaves while moving was also OK.
Frame size became large about 20% from the previous patch also in the test under lowlight.
I think that this result is not bad, either.
Since my friend also tests today, I am looking forward to it also about the result. :-)

Stray

@bkmcwd Excellant stuff, and it still has some headroom too so it's stable. I was looking at what I shot with your Q12 version again this morning and it's seriously making me think of switching to GOP3. Will shoot for the next couple of days with this Q10 version. As in, I'm putting my 1080i/720p higher bitrate project on the backburner, cos its driving me mental.

Ralph_B

@PixCanFly

There's nothing wrong with Stray's 88M setting. The problem is your Sandisk card. The Sandisk xtreme pro has a terrible minimum write speed. Go here and examine the chart titled "Write Throughput: h2benchw 3.13"

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sdxc-sdhc-uhs-i,2940-12.html

PixCanFly

@Ralph_B
thanks. I thought the my Sandisk 16gb Extreme Pro 45MB/s is good enough. Guess Not. According to the chart my card is the fastest among the Sandisk lot with the minimum write speed of 37.2MB/s. So which Sandisk card is good enough for Stray 88M at the moment. What card should I buy then? Thanks for your help.

bkmcwd

@Stray
Thanks!
I also think there is some headroom in this patch.
I am also looking forward to your comment over this Q10 setting.
And I am very much interested also in your "1080i/720p higher bitrate project".
I expect what kind of result your passion will achieve. :-)

hiroshisaito · Screen shot 2011-10-13 at 5.40.06 PM.png

(deleted) I moved my post to 'Noise Test: Panasonic GH2 with Driftwood's 176mb GOP1' topic.
I can't delete image though... how can I delete that ?!

Hiroshi

proaudio4

bkmcwd,
I will test your 88M GOP3 bkmcwd154M3GOPQ=10.zip tomorrow.
thank you

bkmcwd

@proaudio4
Thank you always! :-)

Ralph_B

@PixCanFly

Your Sandisk Extreme Pro has a minimum READ speed of 37 MB/sec, but a minimum WRITE speed of only 0.8 MB/sec! That's where the problem is. It will occasionally hiccup when writing. If you study the WRITE chart, you'll see that the card with the highest minimum write speed is Sandisk Extreme class 10 with 16.6 MB/sec. That's the one I use and many people around here use, as well. It works great.

Driftwood is currently testing some new fast SD cards. You may want to wait and see the results of his tests. Perhaps there's something even better out there.

Hallvalla

@JDN

Nice beaver. (RIP Leslie Nielsen).

I did a lot of shooting this last weekend and totally forgot to test EX TELE. Damn. But your images show much improvement. Anybody else notice an improvement with EX TELE w/Driftwood GOP 1?

PerryWilson

I did, I shot almost all day yesterday in ex tele mode... no issies and its MUCH cleaner

B3Guy

hi, all! I'm shooting a wedding on Saturday, and I'm wondering how much approximate time per Gigabyte I would get with the various GOP3 patches, and which would be recommended. I'll be shooting with a different cam running in the back constantly, while using the GH2 to pick up interesting shots for splicing in. What GOP3 would you recommend? Is there one that spans?

Thanks!

Brian202020

@B3Guy
As for your time per gig question, it's roughly 1 gig per minute for every 100mbps. Now since this is a variable bitrate codec that estimate will probably be a litte conservative, but it's a good starting point.

PerryWilson

just wanted to post, if you look at my vimeo video of the GOP1, people are accusing me of using trickery lmao, good job @driftwood... it looks so good people are mad

TrackZillas

@PerryWilson can you send me a link to your video..

TrackZillas

@PerryWilson driftwood is working on a 187mb/s GOP1 patch.. Can't wait for that one

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