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RED surpassed Beats by Dr Dre margins record selling you just consumer SSD
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  • Are Japanese manufacturers ready to ship new cameras with prores raw capabilities and told apple « we are ready to pay for prores licence but get rid of this red patent « ? This could explain the Z6 delay or simply apple has a ciné camera on sight?

  • I’m awaiting the next installment of our Fearless Iranian From Hell aka Jinni- although i doubt there is much more. @ausboy it is a patent war, what dots do you need connected ?

    The Oakley Armstrong connection is old news and irrelevant backdrop moral bs. On topic: this Jinni guy could be funded by Seattle HQ Amazon or the big patent hedge fund Intellectual Ventures over there. Or Apple or any combination for that matter. With positions shifting all the time.

    Fact is he had funds to take on RED from practically day 1 starting JinnyTech in 2016. And it was he who took RED to court first Feb 2017- not the other way round. To the gullible he must seem to have a pair of balls the size of Ethiopia

  • RE:

    "Trial is set for 8/19/2019 at 01:30 PM in Courtroom 14106 before Judge James L. Robart. "

    Is this case now settled out of court? Or starts tomorrow?

  • For the Japanese makers, they need to either pay Apple for Prores or RED for a generic compressed raw, so in both cases they're paying.

    I think they've not done it because they haven't as yet seen it as necessary for the masses. And it protects their higher tier products. They've all pretty much done their own proprietary codecs.


  • @johnbrawley True, they protect their higher tier products, at least canon and sony but quid of fuji (even if they are attached to sony) and nikon, they have nothing to protect. Raw could be the new trend like hfr was some time ago. Regarding the masses i guess they follow the TV specs but the shrinking market could push them to offer more. Fuji had taken the hevc/h265 route, it will be nice if they up the profile from "4:2:0 10" to "4:2:2 12", i wonder if they can do it by firmware update. Btw i suspect h265 royalties to be lower than apple or red ones.

  • I just want everyone to imagine. That suddenly all the good cameras from $499 have all the recording formats you want, including ProRes, Prores raw, BRaw and all else. Just think about it.

    It won't take long to realize that it is only second base stage. Still night and day pollutions on forums, and still no real satisfaction.

    Camera management still can't even make proper AF for small guys and distance measurement required for third base.

    I am not even talking about real satisfaction.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev I like to give my barbary macaque one peanut by one peanut :p

  • Talked to one guy who is far from all this, from storage market. And got new interesting version.

    Apple soon is going away from Lighting connector and to USB-C. It will be full Thunderbolt version (as it is now part of USB specs). And all of their smartphones since 2020 will be offering very speedy third party storage options. Rumors are even about native 2TB and 4TB SSD cases, made especially for small video guys. And yes, smartphones will have much better storage speeds compared to any RED cameras.

    Whole big fight with RED can be related to the fact that all new Apple mobile devices will be getting ProRes RAW support. It became important to remove unnecessary hurdle that just adds to the phone price.

    Also it explain perfectly all strange things with RED failed smartphone, as original idea had been to add another patents that are much more specific and will be first line of defence. But this stuff failed.

  • @eddavid

    Whether or not Apple will have any luck overturning this keystone patent in RAW video recording is anyone’s guess. If they succeed, they’ll totally change the RAW video landscape, allowing every cinema camera maker to use the same kind of RAW codec without having to develop something unique or pay RED a licensing fee. If they lose, they’ll probably have to settle with RED before they continue licensing ProRes RAW to companies like Atomos and Nikon.

    Just very inaccurate. It is not patent about "same kind of RAW codec".

    In widest claims it is ANY video storage in raw form. Previously position had been that series of individual frames are not affected by this patent, but in 2018 RED lawyers approached all main companies who used CDNG and told that found how to apply patent to them also.

    Prores RAW is now in the strange territory, as Apple and RED definitely have some private agreement considering its applications in cinema market and pro software.

    BRaw or ZRaw are not raw formats at all, they are partially debayered formats made to avoid the patent.

    As I said dispute is now about Apple possibility to use this codec in the broad range of consumer devices and big sums are at stage. If Apple will succeed to fully annul the patent RED most probably will go into tiny niche market, will no longer be sold on Apple sites, will vanish from most bloggers channels and will be sold to some large company within 3-4 years.

  • "That’s why Sony went after the ‘314 patent in 2013 (and lost)"

    Since this was settled out of court we really don't know the specifics of the settlement?

  • My understanding was their was possibly an IP swap as part of the settlement. Sony had counter sued RED for patent infringement as well so maybe they never got as far as this appears to have gotten.

    Anyone know what the X-OCN codec is based on ? I just shot it for the first time a few days ago. It seems very good and is high but depth and high precision.


  • @johnbrawley The Sony Boss aka Sir Chapman knows a bit about it. Btw It gives some hints about Sony vs Red. "The key to all of this is that the data contained within an X-OCN file is based on the sensors output rather than traditional video. The cameras that produce the X-OCN material all use bayer sensors. In a traditional video workflow the data from a bayer sensor is first converted from the luminance values that the sensor produces into a YCbCr or RGB signal." "However if we bypass the conversion to a video signal and just store the data that comes directly from the sensor we only need to record a single set of 4096×2160 data points – 8.8 million. This means we only need to store 1/3rd as much data as in a traditional video workflow and it is this huge data saving that is the main reason why it is possible for X-OCN to be smaller than traditional video files while retaining amazing image quality. It’s simply a far more efficient way of recording the data from a bayer camera."

  • The only thing RED designs is their packaging materials...

  • This video is a doozy! How did he get the footage of Jim Jannard under oath? I can't believe Ted was lying. I thought he was one of the good guys. And kind of cool that red uses the same sensor designer company as Arri!

  • @eddavid

    Most fun is that this guys show how media should be.

    Common public idea that big corporations injected is that if you do not pay for information in capitalism it is ok. Issue is that someone else is paying either it is companies themselves or press is selling your data to this same companies.

  • Also seems to me that Jarred Land is pretending to be a very angry reduser named "Peter Benjamin P." on reduser. Peter to my googling has no record of existence as a person who works in film, and his account was created only in July and only comments on Jinnimag threads.

    Jarred's language here: "It’s not the first time someone has challenged the Redcode patents and each time our patents have held fast."

    AND PETER here: "Red patents will hold fast."

  • @eddavid

    Or may be some Red employee who know how to please the boss.

  • It seems that RED's rise to fame has been their mission to save the industry from bad 2K video. Or so their official story goes. It's a rather bogus claim if you consider the previous/current art around the time their camera got out.

    RED has no in house sensor developement
    Electronics is engineered and made in Asia
    the SSD is just a cheap off the shelf component with a masked interface
    Monitor is the same (inexpensive sourced component)
    All they do is provide a stylish aluminium housing for their products and a "made in USA" label.
    What they had was cash for outsourcing, MARKETING and litigations.

    RED's shenanigans is abysmal.

  • @EspenB

    About their housing and other CNC items it can be nice to make other series to show real price.

    Btw, I am around 99% sure that they outsource it to the company who has high speed CNC, can be even Chinese.

    Best thing I offer to do - see customs declaration database for all shipments towards RED Inc. It can be many new surprises in them.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev Peter Benjamin P's speech cadences and wording is very similar to Jarred. And his anger reminds me of Jarred's post when he would get mad on reduser. Yes could be someone else but probably an employee - what civilian would take such offense to Bruce's youtube documentaries?

    Man, it's sad, the rabbit hole that's reduser. It really does remind me of how cult thinking works. How quickly groupthink occurs and everyone falls in line. It's really sad. I feel the most sorry for a certain moderator on there who has invested so many months and years of his or her life to red, and now, well, I just came off a series for TV about the NXIUM cult, so I know all about how hard it is for certain higher-level cult members to leave it. Even with a whistleblower and now the leader of NXVIUM in jail, there are still those who don't believe everything that happened.

    It's really fascinating but also sad to watch this cult's house burn down. It brings a level of quisiness to learn that a billionaire CEO was lying to all of us about the origin story of his camera. Well to see an adult lie firsthand, it's always disturbing. I've never seen anything like it in our industry that's mostly dudes in untucked film logo t shirts getting excited about dynamic range.

    It's weird, I think it's an American thing Vitaliy, where we have blind faith in our leaders. Even after everything - watergate, Vietnam - most of us still believe those who are in power have our best interests. I mean, just look at how 90% of Republicans are behind Trump.

  • @EspenB Right on, good summation. And I think that's why Bruce starts the video showing what Red is capable of when it was actually left to truly its own design team: the Red Hydrogen, the worst tech product of 2018 according to the Verge.

  • @eddavid

    For sensors: ARRI is designed by ON Semiconductor. RED sensor by Forza Silicon (now owned by AMETEK since 2018).

    It seems that Forza did get a big cash investment back in the early RED developement days, presumably from Mr RED. Maybe this was the reason for calling the RED sensor(s) a in-house developement. :-p

    Eric Fossum, which is mentioned in the video, is a rather active member on the Image Sensor World site and also commnts on the Forza / AmeTek takeover:

    Also, "anyonymous" post several details on this current RED sensor issue, dating back to november 2018 which seesm to be the same claims as the JinniTech video:

    "The problem may lay in the fact that being just a design house, without having an option to stand behind their designs and to get public acknowledgement - their business might not seem such great. I know such a situation even myself - we can not tell which products we have designed. The RED sensor which I pointed out - whose package was seen widely through their online ad campaign - having the same part in my hand, it could be easily matched and its also sort of a public secret by now. Too bad they cant tell more about what they took into successful mass production stage."

    (On Semiconductor on the other hand is a rather big company thanks to a string of acqusitions in the last 20 years which include other sensor companies like Aptina and Cypruss.)