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Black Magic: Official $1,995 raw cinema camera topic, series 2
  • 1111 Replies sorted by
  • kazuokazuo

    @Aria "It's a box that takes in light. Pure and simple. Some can accept that and some can't."

    Interesting what you said, cos i've always called it a "Hyperdeck with a sensor". But it's some sensor they have got there, I have not seen DR of the like in many cameras of this price range. Guess no chip is perfect

  • nomadnomad

    No decision is perfect. I don't get it why they put in such a sensor and not an OLPF. If Mosaic can make one as an add-on for 400, BM should have been able to put one in for something like 250 in mass production (if you want to call the current flow mass production…). They have enough photocells to generate very decent 1080 quality even with an OLPF. And it would have no effect on the really good DR. BTW, have a look at RAW photographs from our beloved one. Not 13 stops, but far better than it's video.

    A Pro-Mist can help to some degree, but it's not a cure for all cases were moiré might bite you.

  • AriaAria

    I've seen enough footage to be relatively confident that you won't always see tons of Moire in every shot. It's not as bad as some are making it out to be. I can understand being sensitive to the fear Moire could ruin a key shot, but I have to say i'm not sure how reasonable that fear is.

    I have seen some Up Rez methods that seem to reduce Moire and Aliasing, which might become a valid path to processing for some. I have to see more evidence, but it looked really good.

  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit

    @nomad, I was thinking the Pro-Mist path as an option for possible reduction of moire issue with various cameras. One of my 4x4 filter sets came with a Pro-Mist 1/2, which is too dreamy for normal and subtle use. Do you have experience with Pro-Mist for moire issues? Do you use a 1/8 or 1/4 to reduce moire effect, while recording an image that is not too dreamy or soft?

    @Aria, yes, those methods in post look promising, however, I am still waiting to see the results in a motion clip, not just the still frames.

  • Raysito22Raysito22

    Interesting, hadn't thought about Pro-Mist filters. It would be nice to see how it works out, it's not a perfect solution but could save a shot. Maybe Black Pro-Mist to avoid such dreamy look? Though I don't know how it would work out in the end to avoid moiré.

    Hm, too bad none can do a comparison with all pro-mist/black pro-mist filters in different situations where moiré can be a real pain in the ass :( .

  • AriaAria

    The BMC has detail to spare, so I would think you could use filters or Stockings stretched out over the lens and I think it would still look detailed enough. I would love to see an experiment of that.

  • nomadnomad

    A Black Pro-Mist helps to some degree, at least it did on a Canon 5D.

    The main problem, though, is that the effect of any filter in front of the lens is influenced by aperture, focal length and lighting. You'll need to balance the softness against moiré for every single shoot. A lot of hazzle!

    And stockings behind the lens are a nice effect, but no safe cure either. If they work at all, they'll be dreamy.

    The best approach as things are now is to keep critical patterns out of focus and monitor full rez. But what can you do when a client is making a statement on screen and insists on wearing his/her clothes with fine, regular pattern?

  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit

    @nomad, charge by the hour, for extra post. Seriously, other than an OLPF add on at the sensor level, it was said on another forum that Tiffen are designing some new combined filters. Quote of a quote (hearsay?):

    "As for the BMC we will be showing the New IR VARIABLE ND at NAB. Plus a wide range of IRND combined with Diffusion filters, such as IRND Black ProMist, IRND Digital Diffusion FX and IRND GlimmerGlass. So the options of how you creatively add a forward OLPF of some description as to say has now increased and is down to you." Carey Duffy, MPTV Filter Group Consultant, Tiffen International Ltd.

    Don't quote me on that!

    The good thing with combined filters in one, you may only need one filter in some cases, or perhaps only two, instead of a bigger stack, which may be problematic for wider lenses, etc.

  • nomadnomad

    You can't compensate by charging by the hour if someone with a camera without obvious moiré is charging similar levels as you do…

  • AriaAria

    The BMC is not a good spontaneous shooter. I wouldn't use it in the same way i'd use a normal Video camera doing live events and such. With preparation and care you can avoid a lot of Moire issues. I still think this Moire thing is a bit overblown. There's been so much footage shown that doesn't show a ton of moire. Yes it's there but not always in a way that is distracting. The small amount that is there is what we're looking to try and mitigate. I hope one day to have the funds to upgrade to a BMC and hopefully by then there will be some solutions.

    I think overall they made some curious choices in design that they can address in a new version down the line, however, this model is still quite a beast in terms of IQ. I personally wish it had the form factor of the C300. That seems to be the best merging of the DSLR and a Video Cam IMO. A BMC with that kind of form factor would be unreal.

  • vicharrisvicharris

    @aria +1

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    I would take the form factor of the Scarlet as an alternative.

  • nomadnomad

    They are both boxes…

  • AriaAria

    I just think Black Magic was trying too hard to make it look like an Apple product. There wasn't much reason to go with that form factor. The direction of a DSLR is great for handheld shooting which is how I do a lot of my shooting besides sitting on tripod. It's the reason why I like the C300 form. It's still easy to operate handheld, but with dedicated buttons that make it FAR more ergonomic and fast to operate.

    Actually one of the best forms I think was the Sharp VL-H860 Hi8 camera which I still own. Not too much different from the BMC.

    Sharp VL-H860 photo 520914444_tp_zps8638ebe2.jpg

  • hunterhunter

    Maybe I'm missing the point here, but I'm pretty sure the BMCC is meant to be a capture device, not a prosumer video camera. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to add a handgrip to the form factor but that doesn't seem to be what they were going after. The case could be made that CMOS sensors aren't meant to be primarily handheld. Does the RED get dinged for not looking like a DSLR? I think there's room in the market for the BMCC to be as sleek and low profile as they've made it. It sure fits in my bag better than the C300. And for those looking for a native handheld device there's the Ikonoskop or Digital Bolex, which are both lust worthy in their own rights.

  • AriaAria

    I think we get the idea of what Blackmagic was going for but a more wieldy form wouldn't have hurt IMO. A grip, buttons and a more flexible LCD can't add to the cost in any significant way but would make it FAR more functional.

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    @nomad - no, disagree. I'm referring to the scarlet with the necessary grip.

    @hunter - digi bolex - lust worthy? we'll see...

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @aria

    Not too much different from the BMC.

    other than about 4lb difference (without rig) I've tried using the bmcc handheld as I'm sure you have as well, not a very fun task at all.

  • johnbrawleyjohnbrawley

    @Aria

    Everyone knows how to play soccer.....but mostly we're arm chair experts....

    The simpleness of the design is a large reason the BMCC costs 3k.

    jb

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @johnbrawley

    The simpleness of the design is a large reason the BMCC costs 3k.

    But simpleness can be reason for other companies coming with similar products at upcoming NAB.

  • AriaAria

    @johnbrawley, I'm sure they weighed the cost of such things and came up with the most cost effective design they could at the time. However I would suggest they could've prioritized having a few buttons that were perhaps programmable for most often used functions. They could've went with a smaller more flexible LCD to allow low or high hand position and a cheaper rubberized plastic body that would allow for a grip. Small concessions that would make for a more ergonomic design.

    Just my opinion but there was no reason to go with the no grip wedge design, big touch screen with limited view angle and no programmable buttons just to get the price down to $3k. I'm convinced I could design a body that could accommodate the electronics but still include a form that is easier to handle and view from high or low angles. Even still using Aluminum if they so desired. Lets be honest the basic DSLR form factor is well established so no need to reinvent the wheel for the BMC. Can't see why that should add so much to the cost.

    How much could it cost to have a few programmable buttons placed in a convenient spot? My kids have toys with such things .

  • nomadnomad

    @rockroadpix

    Agreed, and you can even operate it for a while like that with a small lens – that was my very first contact with it during IBC. But you don't need that grip to operate it, it works with the touch scree alone. Highly modular concept.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

  • AriaAria

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev, this is a good series of video tests. I'm glad we got to see the BMC with Pro Mist filters. I know it wasn't about the effect on minimizing moire but at least it gives a sense of what it does to the image. I think the BMC detail is great. I'd rather have more detail to start with especially since I'd be using cheaper lenses and filters with it.

  • ahblezaahbleza

    I went into B&H ProVideo department today, and asked about availability. I was told "five weeks" wait time for EF mount, with no information available for MFT. It's not clear if that means they clear backorders first, but that's what I assume... and by the time NAB comes around, there may be a new model announced (here's hoping it's an active mount MFT.)

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