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Film Grain Overlays . . . a trick for getting better 4K with anamorphic from your 1080p camera?
  • B3GuyB3Guy

    Hi, All! now that I have an anamorphic lens on the way, I've been brainstorming about ways to maximize the final quality (and resolution) of my future films. with anamorphic lenses, especially those of the 2X variety (like my Kowa), you gain wonderful cinematic qualities like wider aspect ratios and stretched OOF areas. Unfortunately, this comes at the expense of some resolution. I'm pretty set on maintaining full vertical 1080p, which means I must stretch out horizontally by 2X and crop off the sides for 2.39:1, causing my resolution to be half as sharp in that dimension.

    How to improve on this situation? Some thoughts:

    My first thought was sharpening. I tried to find out if there are professional ways to sharpen horizontally only, but couldn't find any really good info on the subject. If anyone has done this successfully, I'd love to hear about it.

    Then today, though I was not initially thinking about improving resolution, I was looking into film grain effect solutions. The most realistic film grain effects are done by overlaying real scanned film footage (usually static footage of a grey card) overtop of your digital footage in overlay composite mode (or something similar). There are (I think) a few free 1080p clips if you hunt around, but nothing higher res. Since I maintain 1080p vertically but exceed it horizontally, I would need a higher res film grain file so as to not compromise quality.

    This is the point in my logic where the lightbulb went on . . . use 4K film grain overlay to "add" resolution (or the appearance of extra resolution) to 1920x1080 clips! Sure, the footage is still 1080p, I know. But the film grain dancing around at 4K will say otherwise to your eyes. It won't look sharper, or like it is resolving more detail . . . but it will be higher res, and it will LOOK it . . . rather than just looking like upscaled 1080p.

    Is my logic sound? It makes sense to me. Has anyone tried anything like this before?

  • 45 Replies sorted by
  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    @johnnym thanks man, wish I was shooting lots more narrative stuff lately...but I'd prefer to work as a DP and let other productions spend the money, as opposed to making/funding my own stuff!

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    @shian you're killing me, man! sooo wish I had AE and GHears right now. I might have to go the subscription route.

  • johnnymjohnnym

    @robmneilson Absolutely stunning, your work! I try not to think of the amount of work that went into it. Just perfect. I hope you'll have better results with Instant HD than I. I tried their demo and it didn't give me any better result over upscaling in AE itself.

  • shianshian

    Footage coming later today

    http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/76601#Comment_76601

  • MacalincagMacalincag

    @kanintesova

    If you are seeing the same pattern maybe you should randomize it more. Of course you can use other grain plates as well if you find them that don't have any white specs. If done the way I suggested you shouldn't see anything once overlayed onto your footage (don't forget to adjust contrast to taste).

  • kanintesovakanintesova

    @Macalincag:

    I tried your free AE alternative. It worked out nice. But I'm not sure I did it right... Is it supposed to just wiggle back and forth a tad bit diagonally. It looks good but I notice a speck of white from the original .png file. It gets annoying when you see it. It jumps back and forth. He he ;)

    Did I do something wrong you think? Is it supposed to move more randomly?

  • WilboWilbo

    Thanks for the follow up @Macalincag ! I think I may jump on this deal soon.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    Been there, done that, works great. No need for expensive ProRes grain files. The only thing it doesn't work with is dirt/dust. The same piece of dust, even in different locations, is painfully recognizable and very distracting. That being said, who wants dirty footage anyhow? Most of the time, dirt and dust looks cheesy.

  • MacalincagMacalincag

    sample different parts of it each frame

    That's a good idea too. You can also flip and invert them too! Then you'll have yourself an image sequence in no time.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    I would suggest either native (keep image at 100% size and sample different parts of it each frame), or a simple reduction like 50%, 25%, etc. so that there isn't funky downsampling going on.

  • MacalincagMacalincag

    @Wilbo

    You guys think these stills can be used with the method Macalincag shared?

    Sure. After all, the method I've suggested stems from a still image. The larger the original resolution, the finer the grain is as well (once down-scaled). So the 3k tiffs you've mentioned should look pretty "fine" once scaled down to HD (if fine is what you're after).

    and couldn't we get the same effect of having several different iso's simply by adjusting the contrast or opacity of 1 grain scan in overlay?

    Not so much as different ISOs have different characteristics, ranging from fine to coarse. Adjusting the contrast, etc., though, allows you to decide how subtle or harsh the the grain will be.

    On the contrary, you can crop to HD out of the high resolution images if you want your grain to look coarser. The looks entirely up to you and you should experiment to which you like best.

  • WilboWilbo

    Hi Everybody,

    I think this is a pretty interesting thread. I've been doing tests using the instructions @Macalincag 's so generously provided. Looks great to me! ...I also just received a newsletter email from the GorillaGrain people today advertising a new grain product for stills photography:

    http://grainsnap.com/store/

    Looks like you get several 3K tiffs (iso100-6400) for $49.

    There was also a discount code in the email (305WOOT) that's supposed to drop the price another 25% if you use it in the next 2-3 days.

    You guys think these stills can be used with the method Macalincag shared?

    ...and couldn't we get the same effect of having several different iso's simply by adjusting the contrast or opacity of 1 grain scan in overlay?

  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    @sistercities I can't remember which model, but it was either a 125w or 200w pocket par. I'd imagine that I would have gone for the 200w if I had the choice, but the rental house might have not had one.

    http://www.adorama.com/AR501300.html?gclid=CPfV3sK06bACFQKEnQodJRc9_Q

    Pretty much can get one for about $200/day plus the cost of extra battery belts.

  • SisterCitiesSisterCities

    +1 @feha @robmneilson awesome

    Btw Re: "I lit everything with a small battery belt powered HMI sun gun" -> Do you have a link for this light?

  • fehafeha

    @robmneilson , amazing quality ...

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    Here is the png I used for my basic test. I'll let you know as I collect more of them. I'm boing to try and track them down and make a collection. http://byscuits.com/grain-tm400.png

  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    Thank you sir, it's simple Lomo anamorphics plus GH2. I did get VERY lucky with the weather however. It rained for days before and was overcast when we shot. So everything was very green, and I was able to get good dynamic range in the frame. I lit everything with a small battery belt powered HMI sun gun and bounce boards.

  • HillTop1HillTop1

    @robmneilson, that's just brilliant!! Well done. It's looks amazing on an HDTV and that's just at 720p! I need to figure out how to do this.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    Yeah, like I said, I'll probably keep 90% of my stuff at 1080 vertical. Try this stuff out and let me know. I myself have pretty limited resources (old software and obviously no 4K display), so I'm limited to evaluating the quality by watching a zone of footage, zoomed in to 100%. But it works pretty good I think, even up to 4K.

    And really, let's be honest. Tack-sharp clinical 4K footage is a certain look. Most stuff looks great a bit softer. That's kinda what this does. It upgrades your footage from "stretched 1080p" to "dreamy 4K".

    a side note, this method works so well thanks to the ever-wonderfu work of Vitaliy Kiselev, Driftwood and others who give our GH2s the ability to resolve all that detail. I have a hard time immersing myself in anamorphic footage from other DSLR cameras because so many of them really don't resolve anywhere near full 1080p, and the stretching of the footage only makes all that garbly garbage worse. So thanks to the hard workers here at P-View, and maybe some users of other cameras can pick this up and use it as well, 'cause they need all the help they can get canon . . . cough ;)

  • itimjimitimjim

    @B3Guy the best you'll get out of the GH2 at 2.39 anamorphic is 2.5k. 2x anamorphic will obviously soften up the image, which isn't that bad on the GH2 as its already so sharp. Using a 1.33-1.5x anamorphic will sacrifice less resolution/sharpness.

    These techniques in this thread are really interesting though, so I'll be doing some testing myself.

  • MacalincagMacalincag

    @B3Guy

    Oh, I thought you wanted to go 4k to HD, not the other way around. My bad.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    @Macalincag IMO, part of the benefit of shooting anamorphic is achieving wider aspect ratios while maintaining at least 1080 vertical lines of resolution. The method I used here would be for delivering your final in 4K. If you're going to have your final product at 1080p crop, then yes, do it all at that resolution, including the grain. I for one will be keeping copies of all my future anamorphic projects at full 1080p vertical (and whatever horizontal the project is subsequently at depending on aspect ratio), and this little trick will easily mask the "halved" horizontal resolution that occurs when anamorphic footage is stretched out.

    And if I ever want to do a project in 4K, (it is coming, youtube supports it already) . . . I know now that my GH2 supplies me with a 4K image via this method that I am very satisfied with. That's what all of this is about for me . . . doing more for less. The more tricks like this I figure out, the more options I have for making my art look how I envision it, the more options I have for producing better work.

    Sometime this week, I'm gonna try a bit of sharpening on the footage before applying the grain. I feel like there's a negative vibe towards sharpening footage, but in reality the right amount and type of sharpening can actually improve resolution a bit. And the grain overlay should then work to hide any hints of sharpening pretty good (this is my hope).

  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    Thanks guys, glad to be of service...and I hope you discover a better method than what I've been doing so I can steal your knowledge!

  • driftwooddriftwood

    Terrific look and feel @robmneilson - this is a great example.

  • MacalincagMacalincag

    @B3Guy

    That's where I originally learned how to do this and it was also originally discussed in this thread here: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/2627/film-grain#Item_11

    That forum suggests a 1080p crop, not scaling from 4.5k > 1080p- so the grain isn't as "fine", which is a more pleasant look if you ask me...

    They are also using Wiggler, btw.

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