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China launches Chang'e-5 lunar mission - huge warning to US
  • 61 Replies sorted by
  • @Psyco

    This reflectors are quite fun, NASA even paid to Big Bang Theory authors to make episode on showing how they can be used. Just some time after this authors told that all had been total lie (they can't be used such as showed and it is actually big issue with this reflectors and if they are actually present), but "it helped in our war with moon landing deniers".

    NASA makes you think like it is simple and no biggie and it is "total proof". But if you dig deeper - it is mess. Modern (last 5 years) instructions for NASA sponsored guys is not to use them and do not go into even mentioning them.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    If there is NO reflector on the moon, how do you measure the drift into space of it?

    Just ask somebody you know at an observatory to point one of there teleskope lasers at the given coordinates - and see if there is a reflection. Let us know about the result.

    (I'm not speaking in favour of the US, its only about that mirror that someone placed on the moon - I don't care who did it.)

  • @Psyco

    Just ask somebody you know at an observatory to point one of there teleskope lasers at the given coordinates - and see if there is a reflection. Let us know about the result.

    You just repeating mass media bullshit.

    If you think a little, in our reality laser spot size at such distances is huge (even for best focused lasers), reflector is not even surface that is directly perpendicular to your location (so it'll reflect this tiny amount of radiation into some random spot in space), real moon has quite high albedo and it'll actually reflect 99,9% of remaining part of your laser radiation (just at random directions, so not big amount will get back, but it will be much much more compared to even perfect reflector). So it is real total mess.

    In reality all measurement are being done similar to how laser distance meter is working in life (but lot of things are very different!). So, yes, reflection from the moon ground is used.

    You can make experiment with laser and any random oriented(! this is important) reflector placed only few hundred meters to 2km from you, you won't get a shit.

    Btw watch how Chinese are doing all stages of flight and will do landing and how it is huge sharp contrast with Apollo fake bravado.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    Come on! Its not a flat mirror - of course that would be bullshit O.o

    Its a "cats eye" reflector, so will allways reflect back at source location. And you pulse the laser which will help in filtering out any light contamination from earth atmosphere and the rest of the surfcace of the moon.

    Without a mirror like that, the tiny distance shift of the moon from year to year would be impossible to measure.

  • By the time the beam bounces off the mirror and returns to Earth, it has widened to about 12 miles (20 kilometers) in diameter. This beam dispersion makes it more difficult to view the reflection.

    The reflector itself doesn't require any power, which is why it's still operating decades after other instruments on the moon fell silent. This instrument includes 100 "corner cubes" (or fused silica half-cubes), which are placed in an 18-inch-square (46 centimeters square) aluminum panel, according to NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). It's due to the shape of these corner cubes that any laser shot at them reflects light directly back.

    "Once the laser beam hits a reflector, scientists at the observatories use sensitive filtering and amplification equipment to detect any return signal," JPL said. "The reflected light is too weak to be seen with the human eye, but under good conditions, one photon, the fundamental particle of light, will be received every few seconds."

    Observations must be made over several hours to account for the weak signal.

    Actually it means it is zero proof that reflectors play any role it getting "one particle of light" here.

  • China’s Chang’e-5 lunar mission has successfully landed on the near side of the Moon, near Mons Rümker, a volcanic complex in the northern region of Oceanus Procellarum, on 1 December 2020, at 15:11 UTC (23:11 China Standard Time). The Chang’e-5 lander will attempt to collect about 2kg of soil samples and return them to Earth.

  • @jleo

    Last video btw shows how you can shoot fake landing with super accurate surface image :-)

    With modern tech it is faster, but at Apollo days had been very similar.

  • Yes, even the landing video flying over the moon in first video looks like plaster of paris with air bubbles :)

  • I have 'shot' the retro reflective mirror on the moon from my universitiy in 1995. It's really, really hard to hit and took a while to get a decent return signal even with a big ass pulsed laser that sounded like a small machine gun.

  • @fostonpete

    It's really, really hard to hit and took a while to get a decent return signal even with a big ass pulsed laser that sounded like a small machine gun.

    Did you see text above, as talk is about single photons, not just weak signal.

    I talked to two guys who immigrated into EU and US and kind of participated in experiments that involved reflectors in some part (as tech guys and not very direct), but as soon as they started asking out general details about results (not about nice paper reports), about reflectors, signal levels - all instantly turned into big hostility towards them, they had been told to shut up and "understand importance of our mission".

  • New footage of launch

  • @Vitally. Yes you certainly don't get much back compared to what you send. There's a bit of noise, but the mirror reflection is an unmistakable solid line in the data. The beam is narrow enough that it's obvious when you hit a mirror and from which site. The laser is highly monochromatic so you know that it's your light coming back. We mostly used it for atmospheric physics, studying aerosols. Those reflections are also very small compared with what you send out - unless you hit a satellite. One of the guys there said he hit the shuttle. I wasn't there at the time but I like to imagine that because the shuttle used to orbit 'windows down' the cabin briefly lit up bright green.

  • @fostonpete

    Can be really interesting to know exact place and all setup of experiment.

    There are actually five retroreflectors on the Moon: three placed by Apollo astronauts and two that sit atop Soviet rovers. But only one of the Soviet reflectors could be used by astronomers (actually this was also found recently);

    It can be real fun if all that US has on moon is 3 reflectors that reached moon by their own.

  • image

    And this is just extreme trolling - as it is first real flag on the moon.

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  • NASA Orbiter spots Chang'e lander on Moon

  • @Vitally. We used the atmospheric physics laser (LIDAR) at my university. It was over 20 years ago but I'd rather not dox myself with where. It wasn't the main use of the equipment, this was just a bit of fun every now and then as it's a challenging target to hit. It was quite a powerful pulsed laser, you could easily blow holes through card and film - not that we did that of course! You wouldn't dare put your hand in the way. Earlier data showed the signal back from the mirrors is getting weaker as the years go by. This could be due to the mirrored surfaces becoming dull from radiation effects or dust. As for the other items left behind, I doubt there's any colours left on the by flags now. I would guess that Apollo 11's flag fell over from the lunar liftoff blast as they positioned it quite close to the module. Other than the effects of dust, radiation or unlikely meteorite impacts, the remaining equipment should be intact. I doubt any of it is in working condition but it will make an interesting museum for future travellers. @jleo Interesting to see the Chang'e 5 landing site from the LRO, I have not seen that before. LRO and JAXA have of course both previously imaged the Apollo landing sites, though that was not their main missions.

  • Should we believe that the LRO photos are real in the case of Chang'e and fake in the case of Apollo?

  • "doesn't mean we didn't go to the moon"

    Moon Rock Turns Out to be Fake

    The Dutch national Rijksmuseum made an embarrassing announcement last week that one of its most loved possessions, a moon rock, is a fake -- just an old piece of petrified wood that's never been anywhere near the moon.

    The rock was given as a private gift to former prime minister Willem Drees Jr in 1969 by the U.S. ambassador to The Netherlands, J. William Middendorf II, during a visit by the Apollo 11 astronauts, Armstrong, Collins and Aldrin, soon after the first moon landing. Drees had been out of office for 11 years, but was considered an elder statesman.

    When Drees died in 1988, the rock was donated to the Rijksmuseum, where it has remained ever since. According to a museum spokeswoman, Ms Van Gelder, no one doubted the authenticity of the rock because it was in the prime minister's own collection, and they had vetted the acquisition by a phone call to NASA.

    According to an article published by the Rijksmuseum, at one time the rock was insured for approximately half a million dollars, but its actual value is probably no more than around $70.

  • Any news from the country who portrays Jesus as a Chinese needs more careful consideration :)


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  • @stonebat

    In US recent discussion had been if white Jesus is even allowed and if it not the sign of White Supremacists and racists and how soon it must be changed to be depicted only as native american.

    Serious discussion it was.

  • @jleo

    Here in Mordor issue with moon stuff is even more fun. Our scientists got tiny amount of it (actually Mordor sent around 1000x more if you compare delivered weight percentage) and it seems like almost 100% of measurements in their papers come from... US papers and never had been done locally.

  • @vitaliy Seriously I think all of those discussions saying "You've been lied" are postmodern nihilism. "Everything has been a lie. Everything is wrong." Just endless narratives like that. But no real solution other than "Do something. Become an activist. That must the sole purpose of your entire life!" IMO that is the biggest lie.

    But there's a fallacy. Even that postmodernism and nihilism are getting old.

  • Maybe Jesus photo wasn't a good example. Here's Chinese version of Star Bucks.

    You know I used to think all those political propaganda seriously. Nowadays I wanna make mocking and good laugh out of it. Believe it or not I think that's the best way to think out of the box.

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  • I laughed so hard. Chinese version of KFC. Mao's Fried Chicken.

    And they are sending men to Moon? Of course. Sure... let's all fly to the Moon!

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