@Vitaliy_Kiselev Maybe tomorrow - I already sent him 2 emails. I don't want to annoy him too much on a Sunday!

@EspenB I reached out to Dr. Fossum and he's very happy with the video. He said that he didn't know of sensor techs at the time at red, but now has met them. He told me he's going to post a link to the video on the DPR forum.

@eddavid

For sensors: ARRI is designed by ON Semiconductor. RED sensor by Forza Silicon (now owned by AMETEK since 2018).

It seems that Forza did get a big cash investment back in the early RED developement days, presumably from Mr RED. Maybe this was the reason for calling the RED sensor(s) a in-house developement. :-p

Eric Fossum, which is mentioned in the video, is a rather active member on the Image Sensor World site and also commnts on the Forza / AmeTek takeover: http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2018/11/ametek-acquires-forza-silicon-for-40m.html

Also, "anyonymous" post several details on this current RED sensor issue, dating back to november 2018 which seesm to be the same claims as the JinniTech video:

"The problem may lay in the fact that being just a design house, without having an option to stand behind their designs and to get public acknowledgement - their business might not seem such great. I know such a situation even myself - we can not tell which products we have designed. The RED sensor which I pointed out - whose package was seen widely through their online ad campaign - having the same part in my hand, it could be easily matched and its also sort of a public secret by now. Too bad they cant tell more about what they took into successful mass production stage."

(On Semiconductor on the other hand is a rather big company thanks to a string of acqusitions in the last 20 years which include other sensor companies like Aptina and Cypruss.)

@Vitaliy_Kiselev Peter Benjamin P's speech cadences and wording is very similar to Jarred. And his anger reminds me of Jarred's post when he would get mad on reduser. Yes could be someone else but probably an employee - what civilian would take such offense to Bruce's youtube documentaries?

Man, it's sad, the rabbit hole that's reduser. It really does remind me of how cult thinking works. How quickly groupthink occurs and everyone falls in line. It's really sad. I feel the most sorry for a certain moderator on there who has invested so many months and years of his or her life to red, and now, well, I just came off a series for TV about the NXIUM cult, so I know all about how hard it is for certain higher-level cult members to leave it. Even with a whistleblower and now the leader of NXVIUM in jail, there are still those who don't believe everything that happened.

It's really fascinating but also sad to watch this cult's house burn down. It brings a level of quisiness to learn that a billionaire CEO was lying to all of us about the origin story of his camera. Well to see an adult lie firsthand, it's always disturbing. I've never seen anything like it in our industry that's mostly dudes in untucked film logo t shirts getting excited about dynamic range.

It's weird, I think it's an American thing Vitaliy, where we have blind faith in our leaders. Even after everything - watergate, Vietnam - most of us still believe those who are in power have our best interests. I mean, just look at how 90% of Republicans are behind Trump.

It seems that RED's rise to fame has been their mission to save the industry from bad 2K video. Or so their official story goes. It's a rather bogus claim if you consider the previous/current art around the time their camera got out.

Alas,
RED has no in house sensor developement
Electronics is engineered and made in Asia
the SSD is just a cheap off the shelf component with a masked interface
Monitor is the same (inexpensive sourced component)
All they do is provide a stylish aluminium housing for their products and a "made in USA" label.
What they had was cash for outsourcing, MARKETING and litigations.

RED's shenanigans is abysmal.

Also seems to me that Jarred Land is pretending to be a very angry reduser named "Peter Benjamin P." on reduser. Peter to my googling has no record of existence as a person who works in film, and his account was created only in July and only comments on Jinnimag threads.

Jarred's language here: "It’s not the first time someone has challenged the Redcode patents and each time our patents have held fast." https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/08/16/apple-challenges-red-over-raw-patent-legitimacy/

AND PETER here: "Red patents will hold fast." http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?177556-Jinnimag-discussion/page19

This video is a doozy! How did he get the footage of Jim Jannard under oath? I can't believe Ted was lying. I thought he was one of the good guys. And kind of cool that red uses the same sensor designer company as Arri!

My understanding was their was possibly an IP swap as part of the settlement. Sony had counter sued RED for patent infringement as well so maybe they never got as far as this appears to have gotten.

Anyone know what the X-OCN codec is based on ? I just shot it for the first time a few days ago. It seems very good and is high but depth and high precision.

JB

@eddavid

Whether or not Apple will have any luck overturning this keystone patent in RAW video recording is anyone’s guess. If they succeed, they’ll totally change the RAW video landscape, allowing every cinema camera maker to use the same kind of RAW codec without having to develop something unique or pay RED a licensing fee. If they lose, they’ll probably have to settle with RED before they continue licensing ProRes RAW to companies like Atomos and Nikon.

Just very inaccurate. It is not patent about "same kind of RAW codec".

In widest claims it is ANY video storage in raw form. Previously position had been that series of individual frames are not affected by this patent, but in 2018 RED lawyers approached all main companies who used CDNG and told that found how to apply patent to them also.

Prores RAW is now in the strange territory, as Apple and RED definitely have some private agreement considering its applications in cinema market and pro software.

BRaw or ZRaw are not raw formats at all, they are partially debayered formats made to avoid the patent.

As I said dispute is now about Apple possibility to use this codec in the broad range of consumer devices and big sums are at stage. If Apple will succeed to fully annul the patent RED most probably will go into tiny niche market, will no longer be sold on Apple sites, will vanish from most bloggers channels and will be sold to some large company within 3-4 years.

Talked to one guy who is far from all this, from storage market. And got new interesting version.

Apple soon is going away from Lighting connector and to USB-C. It will be full Thunderbolt version (as it is now part of USB specs). And all of their smartphones since 2020 will be offering very speedy third party storage options. Rumors are even about native 2TB and 4TB SSD cases, made especially for small video guys. And yes, smartphones will have much better storage speeds compared to any RED cameras.

Whole big fight with RED can be related to the fact that all new Apple mobile devices will be getting ProRes RAW support. It became important to remove unnecessary hurdle that just adds to the phone price.

Also it explain perfectly all strange things with RED failed smartphone, as original idea had been to add another patents that are much more specific and will be first line of defence. But this stuff failed.

I just want everyone to imagine. That suddenly all the good cameras from $499 have all the recording formats you want, including ProRes, Prores raw, BRaw and all else. Just think about it.

It won't take long to realize that it is only second base stage. Still night and day pollutions on forums, and still no real satisfaction.

Camera management still can't even make proper AF for small guys and distance measurement required for third base.

I am not even talking about real satisfaction.

For the Japanese makers, they need to either pay Apple for Prores or RED for a generic compressed raw, so in both cases they're paying.

I think they've not done it because they haven't as yet seen it as necessary for the masses. And it protects their higher tier products. They've all pretty much done their own proprietary codecs.

JB