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RED attacks Sony
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  • @RatLabProductions LMAO!!! Nailed it!!!!!

  • @RatLabs, I've been here for a long time, I actually did NAB coverage for Vitality last year. I've had this call name since the beginning of the internet, nothing to do with Red Cameras. Own 2 Gh2's and shot a lot with them...

    @Vitality

    When Red introduced it's camera the competitors(Sony) were listing an inferior camera(f900) for close to $100,000.00. Red's price point was close to 35k fully rigged out. Total misinformation on this thread about Sony or Canon being affordable alternatives.

  • @re9d, I was wondering when you are going to show up. Well, welcome. And that was all the pleasantry you get from me.

    -You said " Red Invented the technology ". Either you don't know Cr**p about the word " invent " or you don't know $hit about the word " technology ". Combination of both is the most common case for red troll type.

    • You said " red and Arri are the cinema camera that count at this point ". Nice try for creating a recognition for your failing brand by connecting it to Arri. Perhaps you'd like to go back and checkout the memos that JJ sent about ARRI and the instructions you received for mod slinging against Arri.

    • You said " F65 supposed to kill epic. " F65 successfully was/is F65 and that was the only purpose for it. You and your bosses have been frightened by your own shadow. It's not the fault of F65, F55, F5 or BMD camera that you are constantly living in fear of being killed. Flash news for you, nobody cares about red. All other industries are going through the realistic paces of technology. And yes you are about to become a road kill by volume production of big guys especially the SONY.

    • You said " Black Magic Camera is a joke " Then why red is so concerned about it. As a matter of fact BMCC is what JJ promised to deliver and failed. BMCC is the proof of fact that JJ is a PHUCKING lier when he said it cannot be done his promise of $3k for 3K.

    One question for you and JJ : When epic will come out of beta anyways !?

  • @re9d

    I removed some sugar.

    Also, try to keep it out of pure flame and trolling. It is topic about specific thing, not about how Red is good or bad.

    @010101

    Some, please. We don't need pro Red or anti Red flame here. It is so old and not interesting.

  • It is so old and not interesting.

    +1

  • @010101 I don't know Jarred personally, nor can I speak for him. I work as a Cinematographer or Camera Assistant on professional sets in Los Angeles, CA.

    Well the Invention is patented by Jarred.

    Back in the day, Panavision and Jarred were the two front runners of the large sensor cameras and Red One(well now the Epic), not the Panavision Genesis, is what I see on set everyday. If you go to Panavision HW, they have a large amount of two cameras, Epic & Alexa... for a reason.

    The Epic is an amazing camera and is constantly being improved... there are patches, but the camera is very reliable and I haven't had a problem with it that wasn't caused by human error.

    How great would it be if Panasonic said, "we'll rehouse the GH2 to give you guys a full frame sensor and HD-SDI out for maybe an extra $1000..." that's basically what the Red company does with upgrades. Sony makes you buy a whole new camera system on top of the fact that when there were asked to make a camera for George Lucas, they dropped the ball. They basically copied what American companies were doing, specifically, Red & Panavision.

    Problem is you don't know what you're talking about, don't have any professional experience working with any of these cameras. I could spend an hour explaining why the Red didn't make something similar to the BM, but it's probably over your head...

    @Vitaliy Thanks so much for the correction, you're a god man.... keep up the good work!

  • Regarding Sony: I don't appreciate Sony's policy at all. They first told everyone that the F23 is good for filmmaking and sold it for much more than 100K, only to sell the F35 a year or so later and make the F23 obsolete. I've seen companies going bankrupt over this. But it's not true that they copied American companies, they co-operated with Panavision for the Genesis under a mutual agreement and later offered more or less the same as the F35.

    Regarding RED: I doubt that they would go after Sony with a usage patent only, like "Compression of RAW starting from 24 fps". They are not that stupid. Such a patent would never been given in Europe in the first place, maybe in the US, we've seen such crap. But a lawsuit is very costly and Sony can pay very good lawyers. RED may have found something deeper in the way Sony is compressing RAW, and after all the R3D compression is their secret "cola recipe". They don't have much more which is really proprietary other than software. That's why they are very careful about giving their encoding away. They need to protect this.

  • I'm a little confused. Read through the patents and couldn't really find anything in the description of the innovations of their compression that wasn't known about compression before the filing of the patents, and wavelet compression and its application for video goes way back before RED in may different variants. The claim from RED seems borderline fraudulent? But I'm a layman in this sense, therefor the confusion.

  • Never owned, but have been around them. Note to their marketing team: Don't piss on your customers.

  • @re9d, " Yada yada yada ...Problem is you don't know what you're talking about, don't have any professional experience working with any of these cameras. I could spend an hour explaining why the Red didn't make something similar to the BM, but it's probably over your head... yada yada yada"

    Oh I see you brought your BAZUKA ( intended ) and your mouth to go with it - but this is not one of your JJ's knife fights. Talk BIG is what redusers live with. How about you show off some that said professional result from your work with the beta epic here. Especially the ones that would be over my head.

    As interesting the red's technology was for a while, it is all history now. The natural progress of technology is growing so fast around them, you won't be able to recognize them from the rest soon. As matter of fact 8K technology is just around corner and that is when red having major troubles producing " working " units of 4K in considerable quantities . This noise that JJ is making these days against SONY and others will be the laughing matter for some times to come.

    Even your little mind should get this point. Technology get's outdated - and the people that affix themselves to that specific technology will share that fate. That said, " the work " done with technology may survive if it is worthy.

    Do we care what camera Kurosawa used to shoot " Seven Samuri " !? I don't think Stan Kubrick ever walked around arguing about his favourite camera but everybody knows " 2001 Space Odyssey " and Kubrick.

    Only insignificant people attempt to get recognition by attaching themselves to a supposedly popular brand.

  • @010101
    @re9d

    I specially asked to keep it about case, not Red love/hate.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev, To make it clear I don't hate red. I just don't like some of the fanfare they gathered - that's all. But you are right man. I'll try to stay on the road.

  • @re9d Data compression, which is older than zip files, falls under the category of prior art. It would be very difficult to prove that Red's data compression is somehow innovative. As far as inventing the technology, the basis of a digital camera is a digital sensor and a digital processor. RED took that technology, which was developed by many others, and added on to it. Everyone adds on to what came before. There may be some details about their sensor technology that are new and exotic, but it is still a sensor. You can say they may have improved it, of course. You can also say that the best sensor is one that doesn't break down, whichever that one is, maybe my Canon g5.

    In reference to your comment about our collective professional experience, why don't you post some of your videos that you yourself did, and we can then see what a real professional video looks like. I'm ready to learn; learning is better than debating.

  • 'RED may have found something deeper in the way Sony is compressing RAW'

    Sony have done the dodgy before, it was something along the lines of Sony stealing/pirating it's copy protection methods used on it's CDs for the purpose of preventing people pirating them.. several years ago though.

    Still waiting for that Red full-frame 617 medium format camera that does video lol!

    @010101

    We do care about some related details, such as Kurosawa's usage of telephoto lenses heavily stopped down.

    @eyenorth submit a prior art claim them to the U.S. patent office

    Anyway, if I was spending that much on a camera, I would simply not be shooting digital to begin with.

  • @DrDave I've worked with all these cameras and seen them in post, projected. The compression methods of 5d mk2 are horrible, the info is lost. Just goes back to what Vitaliy said when he started all of this, that these cameras companies and giving us the least they can for the price tag, the ability to unlock these camera is proven with the 5dmk3 compression. After Vitaliy's hack to the GH2, Canon had to raise the bar, just enough to stay in competition.

    The Sony Lawsuit is there for a reason.

    1st, they are not suing ARRI, which has it's own RAW format.

    2nd, when I use a Panasonic HPX, VariCam whatever... it AVC-Intra codec, not RAW, especially not XDcam or HDcam, Canon uses XF codec. You have to pay licensing fee to use their codec. I have a bunch of different players and codec for Premiere Pro & AVID so I can preview footage.

    Hitachi uses AVC-Intra 100, DVCpro50 Ikegami uses Avid DNxHD 145Mbps ARRI uses ArriRAW

    3rdly, why you see the bloggers jumping on this and making outrageous comments, is that they sell these cameras, they are a reseller of Sony products. They will sell more cameras is they can compete with Red or Arri.

  • This discussion seems a little odd to me.

    If RED was awarded patents, then the only question regarding them and Sony should be whether Sony violated those patents. I have no expertise or experience with the patents in question and I have no reason to hold this situation against either Sony or RED.

    Some of you do not feel the patents should have been granted. That's an issue to take up with legislators and the patent office, not RED. RED is a business and it seems highly illogical for any business to fail to take advantage of patents they've been awarded. Similarly, if Sony does not feel they have violated these patents, it would be highly illogical for them to have avoided doing something just because it was "similar" to RED.

    Both companies have made cameras that have been used for extremely high-quality cinematography and have contributed to better digital technology (I'm going to avoid arguing about film) being put in the hands of cameramen than they previously had access to. There is no doubt that both the Sony F65 and the RED Epic technologically superior cameras to F900 and are available at a lower price. I do not see any reason for us to "jump on" either company here.

    The only people who have reason to feel passionately about a "victory" in this case are Sony, RED and their respective teams. The content of the lawsuit should make it evidently clear whether their respective claims have merit. Until then, there really doesn't seem to be much reason for consumers unaffiliated with either company to get upset about this particular story. Honestly, I think that the demise of either company would be a loss for the consumer - I'm surprised to see some people arguing otherwise.

    Whatever happens in the lawsuit (and I hope that the law is accurately interpreted, whomsoever benefits), I hope that both companies emerge from the encounter in good enough shape to continue making products. Competition tends to benefit the consumer.

  • I have no expertise or experience with the patents in question and I have no reason to hold this situation against either Sony or RED.

    Exactely. None of us should. But strangely, in the world of cameras, there are dickhead rivalries just like between football clubs and it's often all about emotions and personal favors. Really strange.

  • @re9d You said we don't have any professional experience and we don't know what we are talking about, so I thought it would be reasonable to ask to see some examples of video that you yourself created. Only by looking at footy can we really tell what is real and what is imagined.

    @thepalalias it does not matter whether anyone was awarded the patents, what matters is when the patent is tested whether they can show prior art. Patents are awarded all the time, sometimes randomly, and they only dig into them if they are contested. By the time the case works its way through the courts and appeals, the technology will be obsolete. Sony has a long history of questionable behaviour (remember the rootkit?) but they probably have a case on this one. Anyway, most of these patents are bogus and the electronics business needs to come up with a better solution than litigation.

  • On April 5, 2013, Sony Corporation ("Sony") sued Red Digital Cinema ("Red") for infringing 7 of Sony's patents in the United States District Court for the Central District of California. Sony believes that the Red ONE, EPIC and SCARLET cameras, various digital still and motion camera modules, and various accessories such as the REDMOTE infringe our patents. Sony is seeking both money damages and an injunction to stop the continued sale of Red's infringing products. Sony makes significant investments into the research & development of technology related to the cinema camera industry and intends to protect those investments against companies that infringe our patents.

    Via: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/

  • If Sony's claim wins, RED is dead.

    Regarding this topic's name, the old rule says: "attack is the best defence"