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RAW makes obsolete all your skill
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  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @Mimirsan: everybody thinks he can do it for himself and for less. Thats why 60% of all websites hurt my eye. They look awful and they are not based on any deeper concept. Same goes for graphics design. People think they make great logos, will its utter bullshit. People dont go to artschools to study graphicsdesign for 5 years for nothing.

    And there are hundreds of other areas where its the same. Its just where Vitaliys curve comes into play. You dont know whats good and right and the possibilites so you think you do prime class top notch stuff. And some customers simply dont know anymore whats good. They got introduced to massproduction lowquality stuff. Some people think their 50$ crap suit is top notch. Go with that to Milano and you will see what a good suit is and that it unfortunately costs maybe 10 times as much. Same goes for coffee, shoes, tools (you get screwdrivers for 1 $ these days). The problem is the system that suggerates you that shit is good and most people cant tell good from shit apart anymore.

    I agree though, that technical progress makes things, that were unapproachable before for amateurs slighty accessable, it does not look like vodoo or magic anymore. But it does not mean you can do it as good.

  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @gravitatemediagroup: i agree, that raw makes it a lot easier for amateurs to make technically decent photos.

    But raw has nothing to do with art or composition or framing. You can give me the best camera in the world and i wont make you a movie like Tarkovsky or Kurosawa does. Yes maybe one or two shots will look technically alright. But art has nothing to do with technical ability, but is a process between the unconscious and conscious. Its about a deep feeling you can transport and that has a resonance at somebody else.

    And no, not every photo is art. Although everybody has a different perception of what touches him deeply, neuroscientists like nobelprice winner eric kandel and others have defined certain parameters for art, areas in the brain which are stimulated under those conditions.

    So i guess we should distinguish between CRAFTSMANSHIP and ART. Raw improves the possibilities to correct actions during the process of taking a picture that would formerly have resulted in a deficient picture. So they look like more craftsmanship now. And you can correct some framing. And not any framing is good as you said earlier. There are framing rules that can be violated of course, but still they exist. A badly taken photo can still be art though, if it transports a feeling or a relation between photograph and subject/object of photography. But that is nothing, that will be introduced through photoshop or anything else into a picture so hence has nothing to do with raw.

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    @Zmu Your naivity will lose you money in the long run. Id be worried mate. Future generations are getting savvy. Why pay someone a grand to take pretty photos when they can do the same themselves for less ;-)

  • mrbillmrbill

    @GMG - what part of the business do you work in?

  • ZmuZmu

    Go to bed you have school tomorrow.

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    @GravitateMediaGroup

    I know where your coming from. The advancements in technology and the availablity of it cheaply to general public make a once specialised service into something non specialised. The times are changing.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @zmu it's not all about the $$$m some people just naturally like to take pictures, even it's just to document a family memory, maybe a kids birthday, who knows. To you, it's all about the money, and just because you are getting paid, doesn't make you a professional photographer, it just makes you "a photographer."

  • ZmuZmu

    ...who mentioned anything about wedding videography? Do you have a problem with wedding videography?

    I have a great respect Wedding shooters, how hard they work and how quick they have to think.

    Maybe thats what I do...maybe I'm Joe Blow : )

    Like I said this is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @mimirsan

    Best thing I've heard yet out of this topic.

    @zmu I'm SOOO glad you have me all figured out, Im not a wedding videographer, but I'm more than capable. When I do get asked, I tell them a price, take or leave it, unless it's somebody I know. I don't shoot wedding as a career . But it is a fact Joe Blow up the road "photographer" is in the business over charging clients because he knows he can manipulate and crop the image to convince a client that he's a "pro"

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    Im gonna chime a little. I have a friend who hired a professional photographer who has had over "30 years experience" who charged a bomb. Shooting with a 5D. He also had his uncle who was going around taking snaps with his 7D, Its just his hobby. The pictures by the uncle were better than the "pro" by a long shot.

    Any overcharging fucker can call themselves a pro these days...doesnt mean you have the skill even with the "experience"

    Technology has closed the gap. Only what is left is talent to make a good photo. More and more people are knowing photography enthusiasts.Be it a family member or a friend who will do it for them rather than pay ludicrious prices.

    I dont believe in this self proclaimed pro bullshit anyway. Yeah I know the term professional is used by those who make a living from a specialised type of work. The paying client looks for pros because theyre supposed to deliver a better product than by a non pro. Using RAW or not. Its not always the case.

    Just because one works in the field for a length of time does not make them any good at it. Ive seen many "pro" looking stuff done by "amatuers"

    Theres no such thing as a professional in my book. If you think you're the best as you can be then you've lost the ability to do even better...you should never stop learning and improving your skills right up to death.

    Basically..if you have the talent and know how to use the tools you use and also a willingness to expand your skill then you get the best results.

    Raw can help anyone make their bad photo better...but thats only a small part of the skillset.

    Sometimes a bad photo is just that.

  • ZmuZmu

    "I don't HAVE to accept the job if somebody doesn't want to pay my asking price. Being the shape that the economy is in, I will be flexible and work within their budget if it was say..a friend of a friend type of thing."

    And there it is in your own words: the pricing ethos that has caused all your frustration & resentments.

    [the upper case 'HAVE' is the sign post my friend] no "tactics" req. heard it all before Hmmm... no mention of what you charge how many freebies you do etc. but expect me to pass on my details – don’t think so – I’ve already got to the truth behind it.

    You’ve based getting work on your low pricing and then wonder why you can’t increase it. You’re trapped in your own sales pitch. You see others around you earning more – so you call their rates ‘a joke’ Take responsibility for where you find yourself and make some changes. You’ll never earn $2-3K - it’s got nothing to with your camera – it’s a result of what’s going on in your head.

    ps "friend of a friend" ? sounds like 6 degrees of separation has killed yr pricing structure : )

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @bannedindv I to have a BMCC. And so you agree that it makes life a little more flexible and opens a lot of possibilities in post?

  • bannedindvbannedindv

    By the way - in response to your question - I've been using RAW video for years thanks to RED, and yes I have the BMCC, and yes it is a BRILLIANT CAMERA. And I have also been using RAW in stills cameras for years.

  • bannedindvbannedindv

    Why do we want raw in video world?

    Because when you shot film you had this thing called Telecine, or Color Timing - where you would grade your footage.

    Raw is like shooting a Digital Negative.

    You actually capture more information with which to work in the "darkroom" of video - or in stills case Lightroom.

    Is it cheating to print a film negative in a darkroom? Or do you do contact prints only, or only shoot slide film?

    Again - it comes down to having

    MORE CONTROL

    Masters know how to use MORE CONTROL (aka RAW) to their advantage.

    Amateurs or people IN A HURRY probably prefer JPEG (or compressed video codecs that already have a look baked in)

    I think the thing you are railing against is that with control, one can manipulate the image into your desired vision.

    That's what we do as camera people. Bend matter/light/time/etc. to tell a story.

    Hopefully you are learning more about culture, technology and art from reading some of the responses here - as there have been many intelligent posts about your quandary.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    I like your "let me get the last word" tactic, the part about me responding.

    I don't HAVE to accept the job if somebody doesn't want to pay my asking price. Being the shape that the economy is in, I will be flexible and work within their budget if it was say..a friend of a friend type of thing.

    Do you mind sharing or linking some of your photography that someone has paid $1500+ for. It's not that I don't believe you, but I have the right to call your bluff to see the truth behind it. Or your website, I may need a good photographer one of these days since I'm not capable according to some of the comments. Lol

  • ZmuZmu

    "for somebody to charge $2 or $3k to be a photographer is a joke"

    This whole thread boils down to money. It sounds to me like you under charge for whatever it is that you do - or your charges have been forced down. I know people that have gone out and undercut quotes to win work. All gone in 18 months - it's an unsustainable business model. You can deny this all you like online, say it's not true.... but deep down we all know it is the truth. Looking at all your posts here it becomes very obvious, and your reply to this will only add to that.

    My stills/cine full day rate is $2,600.00 AUD half day $1,800.00 AUD .....no 'joke'

  • DrDaveDrDave

    It's like golf. You reach into the bag, and select the one you wish to use. All of these items are ridiculously cheap, just buy them and try them out. Then sell what you don't use on eBay. Keep a dozen or so for big productions.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @drdave

    -1

    I have no idea what "I don't need my cameras, they are the cameras I wish to use" means.

  • DrDaveDrDave

    I don't need my cameras, they are the cameras I wish to use. And if you really want to know why anyone wants raw in a video cam, it is to make better video plus fixing the WB in case it is totally messed up.

    Let's say you are shooting an event, and the light color changes. Happens all the time. Raw allows you great latitude to fix that footage. Let's say the sun suddenly pops in through the window, well, you not only can change the color temp but also retrieve some of those superwhites.

    Anyway, when you have accomplished great things, put them on YouTube and we will forget about this thread, pull out the popcorn and watch the show. Most people who accomplish great things don't argue over raw, but you could be the first.

    PS parsing the "pro" photographer line, no one believes that.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    how many people posting on this topic own a BMCC (or any other RAW video camera), have a preorder, or plan on buying a camera down that road that can shoot raw?

    if the answer is Yes for you, would you mind telling me why you feel the need to have that ability?

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    People who accomplished great things before ever having "years of experience" I wonder what they would have done if they were told "you don't have years of experience, your not professional enough yet" http://www.totalfilm.com/features/18-youngest-film-directors

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @spacewig

    Notice photographer and pro photographer are in different context

    although I admire your attempt at being a private investigator, this would have been thrown out in a court of law ; )

  • spacewigspacewig

    GravitateMediaGroup 6:53PM " For the 15th time. Raw doesn't make a person into a professional photographer. Any reason people are assuming this is what I'm saying? Because it's not." V

    Very first post made by you:

    With raw photography...ANYBODY can be a photographer. I have taken pictures that you would not be able to tell if I took them, or somebody with 30 years experience took them........thanks to raw. It's to the point, where I have taken probably 1000 pictures in the past 2 months (with my 6d), I've taken several more than that over the past 10 years. and for somebody to charge $2 or $3k to be a photographer is a joke. Almost to where I feel like i'm in the wrong field. lol

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    The invention of the tractor made farmers job easier. Could they do the job without? Sure, but why would they? It'll be quicker, do a better job, and give more production

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    Holy hell y'all have lost it. Do you even read what I'm posting?

    @stonebat

    Raw helps an armature be something he's not. 2nd time telling you this

    @endotoxic not sure what that means lol

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