Wal-Mart

Vitaliy_Kiselev

The average U.S. family now spends more than $4000 a year at Wal-Mart.
In 2010, Wal-Mart had revenues of 421 billion dollars. That amount was greater than the GDP of 170 different countries including Norway, Venezuela and the United Arab Emirates.
If Wal-Mart was a nation, it would have the 23rd largest GDP in the world.
Wal-Mart now sells more groceries than anyone else in America does. In the United States today, one out of every four grocery dollars is spent at Wal-Mart.
Amazingly, 100 million customers shop at Wal-Mart every single week.
Wal-Mart has opened more than 1,100 "supercenters" since 2005 alone.
Today, Wal-Mart has more than 2 million employees.
If Wal-Mart was an army, it would be the second largest military on the planet behind China.
Wal-Mart is the largest employer in 25 different U.S. states.
According to the Economic Policy Institute, trade between Wal-Mart and China resulted in the loss of 133,000 manufacturing jobs in the United States between 2001 and 2006.
The CEO of Wal-Mart makes more in a single hour than a full-time Wal-Mart associate makes in an entire year.
Tens of thousands of Wal-Mart employees and their children are enrolled in Medicaid and are dependent on the government for healthcare.
Between 2001 and 2007, the value of products that Wal-Mart imported from China grew from $9 billion to $27 billion.
Sadly, about 85 percent of all the products sold at Wal-Mart are made outside of the United States.
It is being reported that about 80 percent of all Wal-Mart suppliers are in China at this point.
Amazingly, 96 percent of all Americans now live within 20 miles of a Wal-Mart.
The number of "independent retailers" in the United States declined by 60,000 between 1992 and 2007.
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Wal-Mart spent 7.8 million dollars on political lobbying during 2011. That number does not even include campaign contributions.
Today, Wal-Mart has five times the sales of the second largest U.S. retailer (Costco).
The combined net worth of six members of the Walton family is roughly equal to the combined net worth of the poorest 30 percent of all Americans.

Via: http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/is-wal-mart-destroying-america-20-facts-about-wal-mart-that-will-absolutely-shock-you

robertGL

Wal Mart is threatened by the Walton family. Those poor billionaires had to divide up Sam's windfall amongst each other! Spare a thought for those poor billionaires!

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@Mark_the_Harp

It is also interesting to note that any big reduction of work hours, if you could accompany it with reduction in mass entertainment consumption, present big danger to any stable system.
Guy who is thinking, talking, observing and making his own conclusions is quite dangerous motherfucker.

Mark_the_Harp

Yes - like the famous J M Keynes (quote from the Guardian, 1 Sept 2008):

Back in 1930, Keynes predicted that the working week would be drastically cut, to perhaps 15 hours a week, with people choosing to have far more leisure as their material needs were satisfied. The world was then gripped by a dreadful slump but in the long run Keynes was sure mankind was solving its economic problems. Within a hundred years, Keynes predicted, living standards in "progressive countries" would be between four and eight times higher and this would leave people far more time to enjoy the good things in life.

Hah!!!

I think Keynes was right about living standards, but he didn't factor in the true cost: time required to support these living standards / displaced local business / pollution / poor health / huge use of resources / social isolation etc etc

jrd

@danabrams

that people respond rationally to incentives.

Classical right-wing economists like Greg Mankiw -- the ones who were proven disastrously wrong in advance of and during the current world-wide depression -- love to claim that economic decisions are rational, because it supposedly proves that markets can do no wrong and therefore government regulation is evil. But these economists never actually present any evidence to prove that economic decisions actually are rational -- it's an assumption they use to prove itself, despite the indefensibly stupid decisions people make every day. And even if decisions were rational, the systems are so large and complex today, and so susceptible to corruption by powerful interests, that no single actor could hope to navigate them intelligently, even assuming choices were free and unlimited (clearly not the case, once Walmart moves to town). And if decisions were rational, what's the point of the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on advertising in the U.S.? Is it informational -- a public service from Corporate America? Or is it meant to persuade the public of things which aren't true?

This self-serving school of economics is also apparently unaware of inconveniences like evolutionary adaptation, which condition all sorts of behaviors which, today, either make no sense or are actively harmful to the species. For example, many people in the industrialized are currently eating themselves to death, in no small part thanks to retailers like Walmart. Is this rational?

On the other hand, maybe holding these positions is economically rational for Greg Mankiw and Glenn Hubbard (both advisers to Romney, and formerly George W Bush), because both get huge consulting and speaking fees from corporate America.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@danabrams

Please, let's stay away from holocaust and other bad things turned into myths.

bheath

We went to a smartypants "Stop Walmart Superstore in Our Nice Town" protest. My three year old daughter was up on my shoulders. Everyone was shouting: "Stop Walmart, Fuck Walmart..!". Well that rolled over like a lead donut with my little girl. As soon as she figured out what they were chanting about, she burst into tears and cried out, "Don't fick Walmart!" I love Barbie! I LOVE Walmart..!" True story. So I do have a bit of love for Wally, just indirectly:)

danabrams

@zeko as the descendent of holocaust survivors and non-survivors, I take this question seriously. I think yes, the average German at the time was willing to look the other way. The regime, like many before it, went after the Jews first, took their property to finance their war, and did away with them. This was cruel and inhumane, but totally rational.

Leaders from many countries have often turned to blaming the Jews for all society's problems. This is an entirely rational way of getting elected, unfortunately. Struggling middle and lower middle class workers are told they will no longer face competition from them and rationally and terribly vote to exclude them from society.

This happens with race in other parts of the world. Slavery in the US was a terrible institution, but it was a rational choice for the slave owner. Apartheid is another terrible example. Apartheid was started by (all white) unions in south Africa, who wanted to prevent Black Africans from competing for what were relatively high paying union jobs at the time. Jim Crow laws had this effect in the US.

All of these laws and government actions were absolutely terrible. But they did confer some special advantage on the people perpetrating them. So yes, they were cruel, but they were not stupid or irrational.

danabrams

@brianluce Greg Mankiw, a famous MODERATE economist (a moderate who is the head of the economics program at that conservative bastion, Harvard) was quoting An article about research by Jason Furman of NYU, a liberal economist and one of the main advisers to John Kerry and Deputy Director of Obama's Economic Council. Jason's research has shown that Walmart has caused a small reduction in wages, about $5 billion annually in the US, which is offset by a huge reduction in prices: about $263 billion annually. That's a savings of over $2,300 a year.

Everyone on this chain keeps saying WalMart is MORE expensive (based on what data, I don't know) but studies have shown over and over that WalMart is less expensive than similar stores that it's customers otherwise shop at, substantially so (between 8-40%).

@vitaley_kiselev saying "people are stupid" goes against the fundamental idea on which all economics, from Marx to Von Mises, that all economics is built on: that people respond rationally to incentives.

Perhaps you believe that people are ignorant, unaware of other choices. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps there's some alternative that is cheaper. But the fact remains that people choose to shop at Walmart because it is better than other shops they've tried in some way. You don't know what their alternatives are. You and I are both completely ignorant of their lives and what stores they have around them. I'm lucky to live in one of the most metropolitan places in the world and to have a little bit of extra money to shop at an expensive boutique or buy organic milk if I choose. But millions of people choose to shop at WalMrt on a daily basis. And frankly, if I had one near me, I probably would choose to go there occassionally too.

I reiterate my question. For all the people on the WalMart is more expensive bandwagon, when's the last time you actually went to one?

Zeko

"People aren't stupid" : no but when in a group, they can become blind and do extremely stupid things.

Example : Nazi germany..... do you really believe each german individual was happy to kill millions of people ?

Or even recently, Iceland and the banking crisis. The whole population of Iceland created a "perfect bubble" with their banks because they used a faulty method that is learned in every Finance 101 class in the world, but not in Iceland because they had no finance teaching. And instead of listening to the critics, they actually started believing that they had found a magical method to milk the markets, and that was because they are a superior species (due to centuries of inbreeding and viking blood)...they had actually launched studies to prove their genetic superiority and how it makes them finance-geniusses. And Icelanders were far from stupid individuals, most of hem held PhD's in various fiels like philosophy, arts, and so on.. (but none in finance). People around the world were happy to do business with them because they were such smart and cultivated individuals. But prisoners of a self-delusion.

And then it crashed, and they woke up from their dream...

Just like one day we'll wake up and notice to what extent we really trashed this planet.

brianluce

May be, but who knows about them?

All the members of Personal View!

Btw, a lot of the data from that Harvard linked study on the virtues of Wallmart was provided by a firm that was hired by ummm...Wallmart.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

don't know that much about the scale of B&H but there are lots of small retailers that match or beat their (BH's) prices

May be, but who knows about them?
Amazon and B&H have strongest affilate programs.

brianluce

@danabrams But your discounting the influence of publicity and advertising -- among other things. Wallmart exerts enormous influence through its marketing campaigns. As I've said, I reject the gospel that superstores have the best prices. So it's untrue to say it's a simple case of the best man winning the race or people acting out of self interest. If people were acting out of self interest then they wouldn't shop at Wallmart, because over the long term Wallmart destroys the middle class, corrupts government and ultimately is monopolistic.

Regarding tricky moral positions, you're making a defacto case for unfettered capitalism. Even Alan Greenspan believes, finally, at long last, that markets need to be managed. I've yet to read anything other that the most short sighted argument for Superstores. Personally I'm not sure the best solutions are through public policy because if LA bans them, as they've done, Wallmart will just go next door to some sleazy shithole like Vernon or South Gate and set up camp.

And no one votes Wallmart into an area, as Vitaliy says, they come in with an armada of lawyers, giant lobbying budgets and drop anchor. I've never heard of people demonstrating in the streets to "Please give us Wallmart!". It's coercion, arm twisting, back room deals, political payoffs, and finally heavy equipment that bulldozes a way of life that has made America strong vis-a-vis the middle class. Eventually they get people thinking Wallmart is part of Americana that deserves worship along with mom, Jesus, and apple pie.

Greg Mankiw was the leader of GWB's economic team -- the guys who ran the economy off the cliff. Now he's telling us Wallmart is a great thing.

@Vitaliy I don't know that much about the scale of B&H but there are lots of small retailers that match or beat their (BH's) prices on select items. Either way, the larger issue is the peril of a single mega store vacuuming up 100% a region's retail and turning middle class small business owners into $7/hour store clerks -- not to mention subverting public policy in order to create publicly funded infrastructure that supports the Walton family and their shareholders.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@danabrams

people aren't stupid

People are stupid :-) Especially in mass :-) They also never account for consequences.

decided it was better

No one decided anything. :-)

By banning it, you're either saying you know what they want better than they do or that the preference of a minority needs to be respected over the preference of the majority.

Nope, both things are not true. By banning similar structures you just make proper system.

danabrams

Here, much smarter men than me defend it: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/04/why-economists-love-wal-mart.html

danabrams

@brianluce perhaps you're right and I dont understand the long term effects. I did however once have the opportunity to speak to a Nobel prize winning economist about it and he described it simply (which I'll butcher with my paraphrasing): people aren't stupid. If people choose to buy at Walmart (or anywhere else for that matter), it's because it is in because they perceive it in some way to be add value to their lives, relative to other choices. Either it's cheaper or more convenient or more pleasant or offers a better array of goods for sale. If people are wrong about their perception, then they'll soon learn their lesson and quit. But the fact is, if people are going there and going back over and over, it's because it improves their life in some way. If WalMart is "destroying" local business, it's doing so by creating a store that's more appealing to the average shopper than those local businesses ever did.

The second part of the argument is more important: just because it improves their lives doesn't mean it improves yours. Perhaps you would rather pay even less and order it online from a site like amazon and are willing to wait for your shopping to arrive. Or perhaps you don't want to drive all the way to a walmart and would rather pay more money to purchase these goods from a local drugstore or mom and pop shop. That's fine. Where we get in a tricky position, morally, is when we start deciding that our preference of where we shop is somehow better than everyone else's preference. Perhaps the owners of the stores that are "destroyed" will be unhappy as will some portion of their customer base who prefer the old store, but the process of "destruction" you describe means that a huge portion of the customer base gave WalMart a shot and decided it was better. By banning it, you're either saying you know what they want better than they do or that the preference of a minority needs to be respected over the preference of the majority.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@brianluce

Btw, damage from Amazon and B&H is not smaller :-)

brianluce

Even when I lived in LA I purchased most of my electronics from small web based dealers. Frankly it seems you don't appreciate the long term damage outfits like Wallmart and Costco do to the economy. Shopping at Wallmart is America's version of dynamite fishing.

filthy

danabrams

@brianluce I bought them to house gifts I was planning to give to principal crew members of a film I'm in production on.

I also used to live in a state that successfully prevented Walmart from coming in (Vermont), but frankly, you always had to drive over a hour into New York or Massachusets to buy any sort of camera supply, electronics, or frankly anything other than groceries or maple syrup. Perhaps a Walmart would have been convenient (not to mention saved a lot of gas use)

blazer003

One of these days we (America) will pull our heads out of our butts and start charging higher import taxes to get goods from out of country. I know there would be a lot of ramifications of that, and no, I don't know what all of them are, but it's something that has to be done sooner or later or else the average American will soon be just as poor as the average Chinese person (though they will climb some to a middle point, but much below where we currently live.)

brianluce

They're trying to put a Wallmart in our town, the negotiations with the city are hush hush. But here's what I found out. The City wants the big tax revenue so they've offered to pay millions of dollars to build a freeway offramp to make the new Wallmart more accessible for residents. So they're using taxpayer funds to help Wallmart who in turn will kill the local businesses that have contributed to the tax base.

mintcheerios

Hehe, Wal-mart thread. They are open 24 hours and sell everything at good to extremely good prices. You can buy a Nintendo Wii, some avocados, a shotgun, a treadmill, and get your car fixed there in one trip.

I find that story about Wal-Mart's cheesy friendly service in Germany funny because I've taken that kind of service for granted in Texas. My girlfriend is from Norway and she found it absolutely bizarre how friendly and enthused the wait staff is at family chain restaurants here in the states. It's true though. If you acted like a waiter from Applebee's outside of its context, you'd get punched in the face. I jokingly call it capitalist hospitality. The consumer is king, no matter how much of an asshole he is. The moment it seems like the wait staff is rude, there's always a TGIF and Chili's next door.

I also think that Wal-Mart doesn't work well in cultures where not everyone drives or driving is inconvenient. If you walk to your local store, another 2 miles is a long way just to get a little discount. In a car, 2 miles is nothing, so if you live in Texas, it could be worth it. However in Texas, we have a lot of mini-Wal-Mart type grocery stores that are closer, have about the same prices, a wide selection, 24 hours, and no political baggage. I have no reason to go the extra few miles to Wal-Mart unless I need some pink panties and a DSLR at 2am.

shian

I will go out of my way not to even step foot in a Walmart. In Burbank where I live, the citizens turn out en masse to protest at city council meetings every time Walmart petitions to build one in our city.

brianluce

@danabrams I've been in Wallmart and Costco (its nearest competition) and again, for groceries and electronics, I cannot share your experience. I do however find the odd item there at a sometimes competitive price. But that usually means coming home with something I don't really need. Did you need 5 camera bags?

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

Tags in Topic

Top Posters