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24p to 25p Conversions/conforms
  • RamboRambo

    How many PAL users on Personal Views are shooting the superior 24p cinema mode and converting/conforming to 25p? Apart from the affect this has on audio and assuming footage is all shot where 50Hz flicker is not an issue ( ie outdoors - daylight), are you finding this is a better solution than shooting HBR 25 if the conversion/conform is done correctly?

  • 45 Replies sorted by
  • inqb8trinqb8tr

    Hi katpet,

    In premiere it is very easy to do. Just right click files that you want to conform and click modify-interpret footage-assume this frame rate:25 (or something like that). Than drop your file in new 25p sequence.

    You will speed everything up a tiny bit, can be ugly for voice, in that situation you have to treat audio separately. And then export in whatever 25p you like.

    what happens if I just render 24p material (from timeline that has its matching settings) into a .mfx 25fps?

    Take a short clip with lots of movement and convert it from 24 to 25 in Compressor or AME and see what happens. That 25th frame needs to be created after 24th with motion estimating algorithms and pixel interpolation, and it eventually stutters or creates some weird ghosting in movement etc. You should check it out, it's fun.

  • katpetkatpet

    @inqb8tr could you please explain how to interpret 24p footage into 25p?.. thank you! :)

  • katpetkatpet

    @inqb8tr Hi, I'm also from a PAL country and would like to get a Canon Vixia HF S30 which is a NTSC camera, but is shoots 60i, Native 24p. I need it for web video as well as possibly TV broadcast. I edit in Premiere CC as it's the only one with the MXF option for render, I think. Anyway the question is - what happens if I just render 24p material (from timeline that has its matching settings) into a .mfx 25fps? In other words is it ok to do this and will I be fine with this camera or it could be more unnecessary problems? Thank you!

  • tetakpataktetakpatak

    @sammy best ask your client about that. For your earlier question: I render often from 23.976 to 25p with Magix Pro X and it looks excellent.

  • sammysammy

    Thanks for the info .that helped a lot .one thing .Do I need to send them 50i or 25p for pal tv brodcast ?

  • inqb8trinqb8tr

    @sammy

    You have several options, one is to render it from 23.976 to 25, and that's the worst one.

    The best possible option/workflow would be to go back to editing, and interpret your video files as 25p in a new 25p project sequence. That will cause them to shorten. Correct your cuts for the new length of video files. Export as 25p and that's it.

    You can also just speed everything up to 25p and change pitch of the audio later, but that tends to be tricky, and you need very good software to pull that out and to preserve the audio quality.

    Crop is fine, just make sure that you export it as one of two pal possibilities, 720x576 4:3 or 16:9, and not in any other resolution/aspect ratio, that means, for example, if they broadcast PAL 4:3 you should have black bars exported in the picture, and outer resolution of your 2.35 image and black bars should be 720x576 with pixel aspect ratio for 4:3.

    You are probably on the safe side with DVPAL in avi containter, but you might want to check that out with the TV station because of the size of dv compressed files, many of TV stations here where I'm at can live with some mpeg2 files that are more convenient to send and store. Eventual introduction of fields (interlace) should be done at the final export. Anyway it's stone age.

  • sammysammy

    For those in pal country .We just finished shooting a music video shot at 23.976p .now the singer is telling me that it's gonna run in Lebanon a pal country I have no idea what to do as I always work with 24p. Do I convert 24p to 25p? Or 24p to 50i for pal tv brodcast sd (no hd in lebanon tv) .another thing was we cropped to 2.35 .any tips on what to do what be much appreciated

  • charlie_orozcocharlie_orozco

    I live in PAL land and shoot 24p as well, and although I've succesfully delivered PAL DVDs in the past using Canopus ProCoder (which automatically speeds the footage up upon conversion) the problem with sound is it's not just 4% since we shoot at 23,976 fps, not exact 24p. What I used to do was export the sound from Premiere and load into the old Audition and then use Time & Stretch and copy the duration of the 25fps ProCoder exported WAV into the 23,976 Premiere exported track to get the exact same speed. It was convoluted, but that's what I used to do, and mainly because the quality you get in Audition doesn't compare to that of Premiere when stretching sound.

    So, summing up, you should first finish and close the edit, then export the final audio, then export the video separately interpreted as 25p and get the duration of that "squeezed" audio to use it for changing the speed of the audio track in a dedicated audio application with the best possible quality OR you can export the video interpreted as 25p and speed the audio up in 4,170837504170838% (or 4,1709% which isn't as accurate but it's easy to remember and write) without changing the pitch.

    In any case, use the best application and quality possible to change the speed of the audio track if you want to yield the best results (which I think is the case if you are indeed worried about the pitch, because otherwise most people won't really notice unless they're hearing their own voice or they have something to compare it to)

  • jejesjejes

    Hello, I have GH2 with 24p and i want to shoot with this framerate but i live in PAL land and i have to distribute my video in PAL DVD. I work on macintosh is it possible to convert 23,976 to 25 with ffmpeg. Or is it better interpret footage on CinemaTools and and change 4% audio faster?? Please tell me the ideal workflow

  • tetakpataktetakpatak

    Guys, for the case somebody still wants to know which editing software can edit or render with pitch correction or without it: Magix editing software can do it.

    @peaceonearth asked that nearly one year ago but somehow I missed it then.....

  • AxierAxier

    Is there a document where you can see the different modes of recording? For example: In "Manual movie mode" I can record 1080i and 720p. But where I can switch to 50i and 60i? Or from 1080i to 1080p? I´m PAL user

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Guess you wont use audio on 60p slomos, so just interprete them as 23.976 on import and they will act like "normal" clips - beside the lack of audio. From this point on you are dealing with a regular 23.976 timeline and can conform to Pal after export.

  • katigkatig

    I am shooting music video next week, and I would like to use 24p for best quality, but also I will use 60p for slow-mo. I plan to edit all in 24p sequence and then convert the final to 25p (I'm in PAL land). Did someone done something like this, to be precise - are there gonna be any problems with slow-mo parts (60p to 24p and then to 25p)? The best way is to test this but have no time, because of short deadlines so every advice is great. Thank you for your answers

  • magnificomagnifico

    What i am going do in premiere pro: I just choose "interpret clip" and change the framerate from 23.976 to 25 i/s. That means I got then a clip accelerated to drop in the sequence. For sound I have to change pitch. I use the audio effect PitchShifter.

    Hown many semi tone for correction?? lets see this: http://centpoursample.free.fr/sampling/sampling_conversions.html

    My calculation is the following:

    alpha=1.05946049

    A=23.976/25

    x is the number of semi tone to disminish the pitch of sound ofthe new frame accelerated (from 23.976 to 25).

    We have : 1/(alpha^x) = A

    that means : x=Ln(1/A)/Ln(alpha)

    So : x=0.0419224/0.057759=0.724=0.724

    I will choose in premiere pro (audio effect PitchShifter): -1 semi tone for Pitch and +28 cents (Fine Tune)

    Tell me if I am correct. Thx.

  • lukavilukavi

    hmm.. if i may share some observations i have made from personal testing.

    I've been trying to combine 24p footage ala D3s (720p24 mjpeg) with my usual PAL-land 25p shots (d7000 or anything else I use for work; gh2, videocams) and trying to get smooth playback without the repeat frame jerking.

    i notice that when i use 'interpret footage' on the 24p footage and set the footage to be played back in 25p, the clip automatically shortens (due to speedup) on the timeline and rendered files (combined with native 25p footage) playback without the jerking issue. the only other issue to tackle is audio, which, in my books, is much easier to edit without being noticed.

  • oscillianoscillian

    How do you conform 24->25p in Sony Vegas? This is the first time one of my customers wants a PAL DVD (it's true) and I have shot everything in 24p (23,976). What should I enter in the clips properties? Resampling off, I presume and then what: playback rate 1,041? What about undersample rate? This is very confusing :(

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Sure you will need to timestretch audio, but you will need to do this anyways, so its easier to do it once after export than for all the clips you import.

    If you simply drop 24p into a 25p timeline it will stutter.

  • konjowkonjow

    @meierhans if you confirm to 25 after edit everything get sync off

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Cut everything in 23.976 FPS, render out, then conform to 25. Makes your life much easier.

  • konjowkonjow

    I never need to convert from 24 to 25 but since the hbr in gh2 is not best so far I did one test which seems to work ok let me no what wrong with this if im wrong. Im changing now from Fcp to Premiere. If I open new sequance avchd 1080p25 and put 24fps mts file with keeping origin 25p settings there is red line but clip stays origin length like 25p would do (no change modify and interpret to 25) edit and export to 25p. Red line probably make edit not easy but that looks like simple solution?

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Now I finally have clips WITH sound that I need to convert from 23.976 to 25p. And even worse.. its a bunch of them. I got them rendered as Cineform AVI with uncompressed sound. AFX somehow hangs on exporting them conformed to 25 FPS with time stretched audio on a second layer.

    What are your workflows to do the conversion without recompressing the video?

    EDIT. Doing it with VirtualDub for now, attached the processing settings. Its actually doing a timestretch with pitch correction on sound. Works with VirtualDub Batcher.

    Convert23.976_to_25FPS_Timestretch.zip
    499B
  • dualrealitydualreality

    Yeah, I thought as much. Thanks for the clarification

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Mixing different FPS on a live situation will bring you indeed into big trouble. In best case you could intercut some short sequences, but it simply aint fun to have sound drifting that strong.

  • dualrealitydualreality

    Pre buying a GH2, I've forever shot in 25p so I am new to the whole conforming frame rate thing. I have got my head round it though and it all makes sense and I don't see the audio pitch as that much of a big deal. However, here's an imaginary scenario I can't find a solution for. If you were to do a multi-cam shoot which had its audio recorded separately and each camera shot to a different standard (one 24p and the other 25p), am I right in thinking you'd be screwed?

  • taktak

    I have found the same thing. I'm using the excellent Orion patch, but after converting HBR to prores it just does not look as good as the 24p did. Also I get quality warnings when importing into FCP. What a disappointment. Why does HBR look worse ?

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