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Dynamic range test between GH2 and 7D
  • 84 Replies sorted by
  • @all
    I dont know how is built a grey chart for testing DR.

    From one grey to his neighbour do we double the amount of light? (1 stop difference, as we do when we are in manual mode and just divide by 2 the shutter speed)

    What is ths calculation of the RGB coordinates beetween 2 neihbours in the grey chart?
  • One thing to remember when doing thee test is how the GH2 MTS file is converted.
    It makes a huge difference.
    For example using my favourite method with 5DtoRGB you can get a lot of range using the 1.8 gamma flagging. I'm not sure it was used in the Philip Bloom shootout and that might be why the GH2 screen shot was so contrasty.
    Unfortunately 5DtoRGB has left out the 1.8 Gamma option on the new paid for "batch" app.
    They offer a way to do it using using GLSL Fragment Shaders, but I have not been ably to figure that out.
    Anyway, dont forget when comparing cameras to export the flattest image possible if you want to see the range.
  • Here is the Xyla: http://dsclabs.com/Xyla

    And I check the waveform in Resolve.
  • Yes, the usable DR is another thing. Two things that chart have a lot of problem dealing with are at the highlight level channel clipping and in the shadows not only the noise level but its characteristic. Like in my test the shadow noise of the hacked gh2 is much finer and looking more like grain, that it is much more acceptable/usable to dig into them than in the Canons ones.
  • No thay are not the same, it is more like this http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/canon_5d_how_much_dynamic_range_does_it_have_really/ can't find the link where someone was using one.
  • @cowpunk52 is the "backlit stoufer chart" the same device with little holes giving more (twice) and more light, the same as zacuto test?

    @nomad:thx for information :-)
    How do you measure information of luminance of your chart? From a still grab of your footage do you?
    Then from a software (maybe photoshop?) you take measure of luminance from each point of light, looking for non clipped data? How?
    What I dont understand is that each spot of light is double lighted from the last. So considering the grey scale of your photo, have you got enough information do measure 14 stops!?
  • I agree with Nomad. I've looked at DR tests and res tests. there's such a a thing as "Usable" or real DR.

  • Thanks nomad.
    Good to know.
  • We all know this is quite subjective, given that the amount of noise you want to tolerate counts here.

    I did a test with the new Xyla-21 by DSC Labs (even better than Stouffer) and tested quite a few cameras under identical conditions. Judging conservatively the Alexa won with 14 stops. The 7D was 10, and the GH2 9.5 stops. If some say the Alexa has 14.5, the GH2 will have 10.
  • @magnifico - i'm going to try hard to get a hold of a backlit stoufer chart before i start shooting a feature in January. I would very much like to know this information as well before i get neck deep into production.
  • Assuming you're getting the maximum available range, 7D is measured at 0.4 stops more than the GH2. Both are over 11. Even in RAW still photography, I do not find that it is anywhere near that much 'useful' DR.
  • DR for video of course.
  • Hi, I am very curious about a calculation of DR for gh2. So do we know DR from gh2? It is a pitty zacuto didnt include gh2 in their shootout...Can we reproduce their tests for calculation of DR for gh2?
  • @Ian_T yeah, the trick is the downscale. A bayer chip can usually resolve at max about 80% of it's native resolution. If the downscale is done with the proper processing from a suitably oversampled sensor, then it should be able to resolve as much as a native 1080p 3-chip camcorder. But it's very difficult to resolve more than 1000 TVL in the HD format, because there are only 1080 vertical pixels in the frame. Also, downscaling is no simple task - just try and do a straight conversion from HD to SD and see how much aliasing you get! I'm thinking a fair amount of anti-aliasing or blur is applied during the encode process of the GH2's video which results in it's softer than native resolution, but that's pure speculation. In a perfect world we could get a 3-chip S35 sensor block at HD or higher resolution, but that would probably result in a very large camera!
  • @Cowpunk52 Yeah, I pretty much understand all of that. I guess I always just looked at it as still one sensor and 3CCD as just a descriptor (differentiating it from Single sensor because of the different way it captures light). But sure... technically it's 3 sensors.

    So let me ask you this... can a camera like the Red One...with its higher resolution than even the Alexa etc. resolve more than a "3 Chip" full raster camera? It's a single chip CMOS camera that debayers its image just like any other single chip CMOS camera which tells me it should not be able to do as good as the cameras you mentioned earlier. As a 4K etc. camera I can image it spits out much larger images.....but I'm asking about resolvable detail.

    EDIT: I might be able to answer my own question. I'm guessing because it (A Red) spits out a much larger image that alone should give it an advantage. But if we are comparing just a 1920x1080 final image then my original statement could still stand?

    Oh and remember I'm not arguing againts your understanding of GH-2 resolving 800+ lines. I've seen that result (or description) elsewhere. It was said to be "close" to the EX-1 but not better or "quite there."
  • @Ian_T - actually, i am explaining this correctly. All of those cameras have three sensors, and each of those sensors have 1920x1080 photosites. Which is why they are known as 3 chip camcorders with 3 chip sensor blocks. It's really super easy to confirm this: just go to the B&H product page for the Canon XF300. Notice the part in the description where it says that the camera has three native 1920x1080 sensors? Yeah, there ya go. But how can this be? How does such voodoo work? Very simply - In 3CCD or 3MOS camcorders, a beam splitter separates a signal into three different versions of the same image - one showing the level of red light, one showing the level of green light and one showing the level of blue light. Each of these images is captured by its own chip - but each measures the intensity of only one color of light. The camera then overlays these three images and the intensities of the different primary colors blend to produce a full-color image. A camcorder that uses this method is referred to as a three-chip camcorder, and because it doesn't need to do a bayer interpolation like a single sensor has to do, it's typically able to resolve extremely close to it's native resolution. The RED and F3 have aliasing and moire because they are single cmos sensors that have to do a bayer interpolation of their red, green and blue pixels on the sensor. It's impossible for those cameras to produce an image that resolves the sensors native resolution, and so some information is made up, and that's why aliasing is sometimes referred to as 'false detail.' The GH2 has to do a bayer interpolation too (which is why it will also alias and moire given the right detail frequency), then downsample that to a 1080 video signal. However, perhaps due to processor horsepower or encoding algorithm or some other reason, the video resolution is not as good as a proper downsample from the "5k sensor." Anyone can test this very very easily: take a 16MP raw still and a 1080p video of the same high detail subject or scene. Downrez your GH2 raw still image to 1920x1080, then compare it to a video frame grab from the same scene. Post your results.

    Also, we ended up here because a question was raised regarding the validity of a resolution chart shot with a GH2 and posted on another forum. One poster here stated that it was not accurate because the chart poster was just trying to protect his $40,000 2/3" camcorder investment. I stated that it was accurate given my similar findings with the GH2's ability to resolve detail in HD video.
  • EX3 is a cmos camera and its guts are the same as the EX1 so I don't see how it can be outresolved by the EX1. 800-900 lines was the figure they gave me when I had the EX3.
  • "a camera with three 1920x1080 sensors can easily resolve a 1000 tvl picture when shooting HD format. That's why the XF300 can do it, as well as the EX3, HPX250, PMW350, HPX3100, and a bunch of other full-raster 1080p camcorders. "

    @cowpunk52 Um....I don't think you are explaining this correctly. None of these cameras have 3 sensors. They have one 3CCD sensor that takes separate readings of red, green, and blue values for each pixel as opposed to a single CCD camera. And...just because a camera is 3CCD does not necessarily mean it can resolve 1000 lines. But...I do believe the EX-1 is rated at 1000 lines. I've read some testemonials in the past (I forgot where) that it resolves better than the EX-3.

    As far as the GH-2's resolving power.....I believe it's very close to the Sonys (on paper) but not quite as much. BUT in real world shooting it shows a bit different. I think it all depends on the shooting situation.

    I agree with @bwhitz about viewing these DSLRs as like different film stocks. I mean...film is film....but not all film stocks resolve the same...or even look the same. So, why is it that we all get so worked up about DSLRs vs....whatever?

    Also, I've seen examples of EX-1/3 footage showing some form of aliasing in the past. So it's not just a CMOS thing (though I understand where it comes from with CMOS cameras). And yeah....even the more expensive CMOS cameras like the Red, F3 etc. all have aliasing. I only bring this up because it seems like people who like to put DLSRs down always use that issue as a way to seperate DSLRs from the "big boys." I also found it funny that those same people never use the GH-Xs in their argument. Fact is these Panasonic cameras do an excellent job in controling that issue.

    ......what were we talking about again..... Oh yeah....Dynamic Range between GH-2 and 7D. How did we end up here?

  • @cowpunk52

    Gotcha, makes sense.
  • @bwhitz I think you just need to do some side by side test by just shooting some high detail scene, better in low iso because we want to see them at their best (if else someone wouldsay that the iso noise is higher in one or the other. post the result in full 1080p png files. As the chinesse say a picture says more than a thousand words.
  • @cowpunk52 " I just don't think incorrect data should be presented as fact, i.e. that the GH2 is a 1000 TVL camcorder, when the overwhelming majority of independent test results show otherwise."

    What overwhelming test results?

    The EX3 is a known and confirmed 1000 line camera... I use it and the GH2 allot. GH2 out resolves it in every situation I've seen. I posted a few. I can post more. EX3 is native 1080p while the GH2 starts at 5k worth of pixels... therefore, more detail ends up making it to the final 1080p image. Oversampling is very common knowledge in the video and audio worlds. Are you just saying that it now only resolves 800 lines when compared to a XF300 or something now? I don't get it? And your also not justifying why the GH2 would not be a 1000 line camera... you're just saying it's not... for no reason. Because it's not shaped like a real "video camera" or something? The Canon DSLRs have a good reason for not making a full 1080p image... like skipping and fast downscaling. But the GH2 doesn't do this. It's a real downscale from a 5k image. It's logical that it would be able to out resolve any native chip.

    And your dollar bill test really doesn't show much. Like I said, you need to post some native 1920x1080 stills (not crops) of something like tree's or grass... as boring as it may be. Or something where there is objective detail that can't be argued with... that's why I shot the alley scene... you can either read (to a degree) the license plates, or not. There's no interpretation needed besides that. When you shoot a close up of something, like your dollar bill, the degree of variable change is too high. Even if it did show definitive results, you need to include a few different examples, or maybe something like longer shot of a pile of dollar bills or something.
  • bla bla bla
  • @dbp - yes, on the dvxuser thread i did post a camparison between an fd lens and a m4/3 lens. Their was a difference in perceived sharpness going toward the m4/3 lens, but it gave no more resolved detail than the fd lens. Sharpness and resolution are two different qualities, though. The fd lens, having far less contrast, appears less sharp. When a contrast curve is applied to match the m4/3 lens, you see that there's actually no difference in resolved detail. This is all in 1080p24 video mode, of course.
  • Also, was the landscape shot filmed at 1080p on Philip Bloom's page? Because in that instance, the C300 is clearly resolving more detail.
  • @cowpunk52 I can't remember which lens you used, but later in the thread, you posted a comparison between it, and the panasonic 14-45lens, which proved to be a bit sharper.

    By the looks of the things, with your test at least, the xf300 would still be sharper, but the gap would've been closed somewhat, had you directly compared the panny lens to the xf300. Hard to say how much, though.