Well, getting back on topic (albeit less interesting) I went ahead and bought the Red One MX on Friday, as the delays for the BMCC pushed me over the edge. Vitaliy won't approve of the used camera, but I'll run it through it's paces during my 90 day warranty period. It's a bigger investment than the BMCC for sure, but after a respected old buddy from NYU told me it was "like finding 10,000.00 on the street", I moved on it. He also did the OEM build of the Red Nikon mounts, so hopefully I'll get some of his used stuff at a discount. Besides, I'd rather have my money in something solid now then in a bank.

I'm a frugal shopper, so I'll post the final damage to get this camera functional, not optimal. I'm not a gear geek, I just get what I need to do what I need. While I have been teaching film at universities, I haven't been working gigs, so I've been shooting with 5dmk2 and then with the GH2. But now that I'm in China, I'm going back to my U.S. work habit and think the rig is an investment. We'll see.

But this camera will not be able to go where I've taken the GH2, so it stays with me. "From my cold dead hands" as Heston once said.

@danyyyel +1 It is damn industry and their short-thinking market strategy who ruins the progress at the end. Why producing 2k and 4k technology in the times when majority of consumers still didn't check the IQ difference between DVD and HD?

The sad true for many of us here is that the most of consumers don't care about HQ, neither for videos nor for tone. Also our footages with amazing VK's hacks and driftwood's settings are mostly being watched on iPhone and Android screens, true?

In music industry is the same: 2k and 4k equivalents didn't work at all. Since the digital sound recording exists, the industry has been fighting to get a standard medium accepted by all consumers. Stupid only, that each company forced its own format as none wanted to share their win with the others (pay for using their codecs/formats).

As result, the consumers were insecured and overfloated by the new products, which were not supported after only few years (or even months). There were so many sound devices and mediums: Digital Cassette, Digital audio tape (DAT), Laser Disc (sound+video), Digital sattelite radio (DSR) etc. I could bet only few of younger PV members here heard of more than one of those. I owned all of them and payed lot of money for those devices in that time. Today it is electrical waste.

So, considering this topic: the first quality equivalents of 2k and 4k in the audiophile world are already dead. First it was DVD-Audio (up to 6 tracks in PCM 48kHz/24bit uncompressed) who was out, and now it also happens to the SACD (DSD technology). Today, BD-Audio offers also possibility for up to 8 uncompressed high-bitrate audio tracks. Yet, the opportunity to listen music in amazing quality and in surround instead of stereo were so far not interesting because most of consumers just prefered poor MP3, listening them on the speakers of their tablets or notebooks.

I do not belive in the future of 2k and 4k. Even if many consumers would start buying such devices, the industry would destroy that progress with the instant release of 8k and 16k.... LOL

@peaceonhearth

I was double checking in euro, and i couldn't find such reduction of price in italy, that's why i asked. Don't worry, i make confusion every time, on professional things, with the VAT :-) Thanks for the infos.

Commercially 4K is driven by the hi-res gaming, computing and Smart TV technology with 'hi-speed web'- not so much filmmaking/broadcast. TV manufacturers want more display pixel space for multiscreen/webcast crossovers like Apple want you to buy more pixels in their latest iPad/macbooks etc. Pany are set to launch decent 4K consumer priced display line with SMART in 2013 - where else can they go?! Sammy, Sony, etc.. the same. Over here in the UK, Sky is looking at the launch of one or two 4K movie channels within the next 2 years and the Beeb is testing - ready for Freesat? Whatever happens, worldwide broadcasters are establishing new compression standards for 4K to cope with bandwidth probs. AVCUltraHD derivative?

3D TV will improve vastly with 1080p in each eye, screens greater than 80 inches will look better.

As for diminishing returns there is none with digital until we at least get to the equivalent of film. RED and the likes are simply moving up to 8K and above niches.

My personal-view is Viva! Ultra HD. We'll all be editing in a proxy version of AVC ULTRA HD in a year or two anyway.

No, you hadn't more trouble working with h.264, and if you had it's your fault. What you may have had more trouble with, is "fine tuning" h.264 or getting exactly what you want from it (at least close to the level you're accustomed with RedRaw).

lol, sure, whatever you say mate.

For what I have heard it is not the editing in itself that is tedious now but the render time if you don't have a red rocket. It is more like days than hours.

coming back to the topic "price reduction" also reduction from Sony (EU / Germany)

NEX-FS700 -20% (to 6.967,-)

NEX-EA50 -10% (to 3.150,-)

PMW-100 -25% (to 2.995,-)

PMW-F3 -35% (to 11.950,-)

HXR-NX70 -23% (to 2.360,-)

NEX-FS100 -25% (to 4.290,-)

PMW EX1R -24% (to 4.864,-)

PMW EX3 -25% (to 5.863,-)

I am very curious for the F5/F55 price

Be honest, please: Raw workflow requires some more steps and skills. Saying that it's not rocket science and has got its advantages is true but doesn't change things.

Same here. One of my students said after working with Red's RAW for the first time on a beefy machine with Premiere Pro: "That feels like editing DV". He knew nothing but H.264 on his private machine before…

Moved my rant to here - http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/5130/art-vs.-art

feel free to delete my comments here

@ nomad the problem with r1, for broke blokes like myself, is after accessories you've already spent $15k+. so much for the appeal of that one. if you can afford r1 + accessories, why not just buy a reduced-price scarlet? i dont get the hysteria

for all you haters, i present "dumbland", episode 3: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x90i7c_dumbland-by-david-lynch-3_webcam

discerning isn't the right term, but at least he's got the nuts to screw around with the expectations and conventions of filmmaking language / structure. i don't like a lot of his work, and think most of his efforts fail, but i do find SOME of it more intriguing and culturally relevant than the typical and tired out old hollywood themes that keep getting regurgitated.

i prefer tarr any day to lynch as he clearly has a respect for human dignity, but, either way, both filmmakers have found a meaningful way to challenge the hollywood shit that dominates the market.

Getting back to the topic...

I'm not an expert about hi-end cameras, but from my point of view I can see there's one thing that, so far, separates RED from SONY: the "imagery" about itself.

You film on RED cams => you're a movie pro.

You film on Sony cams => you're a "generic" pro.

Once I asked to a close friend of mine, who's a pro film-maker in London, why he got a RED ONE. He told me some good points but the main one was "There are a lot of rookies in this industry and I don't want to look like them. RED means professionalism to the eye of clients".

That's why RED, in order to survive, doesn't need to be any better than its japanese competitors, BUT it must be at least on par with them and that will not be easy on the long run...