Art vs. "Art"

Mark_the_Harp

most storytelling today, including non-corporate "indie" films, offers no mystery at all. It's packaged, and "corporatized" storytelling -- nothing left to the imagination, because the maker is selling the story itself, or a summary version of the story, rather than the telling of the story.

@jrd That's a superb bit of writing - thank you!

brianluce

[quote]The question was: Why does walking out during the interview result in a high success rate in getting hired?[/quote]

He didn't mention that he's applying for jobs at insane asylums. They do things a little different there.

jrd

Well, then, V.K. If we're going to be truthful about it, most storytelling today, including non-corporate "indie" films, offers no mystery at all. It's packaged, and "corporatized" storytelling -- nothing left to the imagination, because the maker is selling the story itself, or a summary version of the story, rather than the telling of the story.

It's gone so far that fictional movies (not "based on real events") end with end credits explaining what happened to the characters long after the time-frame of the action. Couldn't let the audience go home without knowing exactly what happens to fictional people in a fictional universe in a fictional future!

So I wish Shian luck, but if he ever gets the interview with Spielberg, it would probably be better not to walk out. Instead, just explain why you normally would have walked out.

jeffharriger

Hehe, always with the lumberjacks David! Delightful.

I tried to read the thread entire, but golly - it's a bore! And that coming from me! I've sat through all of Inland Empire 4 times! So first things last, there's Capra: "There are no rules in film making, but there are sins, and the cardinal sin is dullness." So there's that. (actually, as is so often the case, one of the first scenes floating through my head was the great one at the end of Stardust Memories, where the aliens tell Woody "if you want to do mankind a service, tell funnier jokes.")

Personally, whether it's out of an inherent shyness or what, I'm known for almost never asking questions during a conversation, interview situation, or whatever, even with closer friends. It's not really a great way to connect, if it's a conversation, it's just that... uh, that thing, you know? Who wants to hear what someone's already worked out, or get an eye on their posture, or whatever the hell a "corporate type" would be interested in? Gross. (okay, Dylan, too: "what good are you anyway if you can't stand up to some old businessman?")

So, finally and all, and from my perusing this has been "answered", which of course isn't the point, but did you ever listen to one of those dvd commentaries, or read a critical study of blah blah blah, and gotten to the part where the subject is all "The important thing with my work is to provide all the answers and a very clear and simple short-cut to thinking, cause I got it figured out, yo"? Because somewhere in there-- oh shit, coffee's done. Mr. Lynch and I will certainly agree that this is what's important. "Silencio", as the blue haired lady says at the end of Mulholland Dr. (and yeah, that crew member at the end of Contempt, too. Chilling, those. Fuck, the fun part of it, gang! The fun part!)

sid

his movies are amazing compared with his singing

shian

+1

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@shian

You reminded me of this

shian

It's not arrogance. Arrogance is not a calculated tactic. It's not active. Arrogance is usually involuntary. I don't behave arrogantly while walking out. I do it calmly. I don't act offended. I thank them for their time. But I walk away.

I am doing two very specific things by walking out, and they have everything to do with storytelling.

Jasketti

@Shian

[quote]The question was: Why does walking out during the interview result in a high success rate in getting hired?[/quote]

Ok, but to say something like this you need more proof than your own word on your successrate, which, no doubt has also a lot to do with the skill and quality of your work and likely recommendations. And based on what you have presented on this forum and at ColorGHear you know your job and are passionate about it. I have myself been on the hiring side a few times - and trust me - if someone walked out on me, he or she would most likely not work for me, ever.

And to point out this opinon of yours could very well be done more clearly and without calling people dumbass? :D

I have never walked out on an interview. And probably will not, unless someone seriously insults me. However I would estimate my succes rate of getting hired to be in the same ballpark between 80-90%.

[quote]The question was also: How do you learn about someone without asking any questions?[/quote]

Google... :D Sure there are a lot of information going back and fourth between people when they are positioned next to oneanother. Gestures, body language, chemical signals, etc. some of which we cant pretend and control. Lack of the prementioned sometomes makes deciphering forum posts rather diffucult :)

But arrogance is just one thing. And it is not universally usable. The bigger the city/company the more likely it is to have positive effect and ofcourse this is completely dependant in the person doing the hiring. I would predict that the more uncertain they are about their own professionalism the more likely they are to hire you after you pull the dissappearing stunt :)

[quote]The whole thread exists to ask and answer those two questions: Everyone is making the mistake of making about me and my dislike for David Lynch. The thread really has nothing to with me or Lynch at all. Lynch is just a device. I could have used any filmmaker, really. But I've found that Lynch works best.[/quote]

Just as you are free to dislike David Lynch or use him as a tool to present your case (however I cant understand why you need to hate him?) so are all of us free to comment on your dislike. ok. ;)

The reason I dont pass LRT is not because I cant figure out the films. I can in my own mind fill the gaps. Maybe youcant and that annoys you about the films. But if "why" is the only question in hiring personnels head when you walk out mid interview - they are doing the wrong work.

Inspired by this thread, I am thinking about implementing a Reverse-LRT on the hiring process of my next shoot :)

Peace.

mattc

Piss Christ (Andres Serrano, 1987)

jrd

"You have to do something else if you really want to know a person - two things really, but most often you can accomplish them in one single move. It's the exact same thing you have to do to tell a good story. It's the reason Lynch has a career. It's the reason I get hired. It's where all great Art comes from. It's so universal, and useful it's remarkable."

But this is the most brazen piece of posturing of all -- far more preposterous than saying your dog is a better filmmaker than David Lynch. Are you really sure you know where the irony here begins and ends? Or are in control of it?

jpbturbo

Walking out during an interview creates a sense of mystery, just like telling a story but not presenting all of the plot at once, like a David Lynch film that makes you try to figure out what is actually happening.

shian

@Jasketti

The question was: Why does walking out during the interview result in a high success rate in getting hired?

The question was also: How do you learn about someone without asking any questions?

The whole thread exists to ask and answer those two questions: Everyone is making the mistake of making about me and my dislike for David Lynch. The thread really has nothing to with me or Lynch at all. Lynch is just a device. I could have used any filmmaker, really. But I've found that Lynch works best.

There is a reason nobody is reading the entire thread, you almost need to read it to understand. Commenting without reading defeats the purpose, and, ironically, serves to say more about why I started this thread than the thread itself.

When I first asked the questions I said:

"You have to do something else if you really want to know a person - two things really, but most often you can accomplish them in one single move. It's the exact same thing you have to do to tell a good story. It's the reason Lynch has a career. It's the reason I get hired. It's where all great Art comes from. It's so universal, and useful it's remarkable."

Jasketti

Oh. Btw. This is Art:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/politics/art-johnson-PEPLT007407.topic

Jasketti

Why? Because you should come off the weed and fast! :)

Why? No. There are no shades in total darkness. If you can read - it is not a total darkness.

Why? Only if you are one of those people ready to accept anything as art, such as murder? Are you, Shian, one of those? And please dont ask WHY it matters. ;)

Why? (does your opinion count) Because if it didnt, your question here and anything you say or do would stop to have a meaning? No, this does not mean that it doesnt have effect or impulse. It is you, only you who are trying to deduct your own words. Language is, after all our most obvious way of communication. Can you play with rules of society? Sure! You can even brake the law if you want - but there are still consequences.

Why? A song by Enigma.

Why? When? What for? How come? By whom? My my. Here here.

Why (shian wants to insist that his post on PV-forum is in a vacuum)? You really cant force feed your (concept of) art or concept of the concept of what you feel, regardless whether you believe so or not. But naturally an action has reaction, right?

Why? Why do you care, Shian?

Why? Because you did not post this stuff under "philosophy/trolling/art category" ;).

Why? Because you were giving horribly bad advice. Both socially and economically. And some people care for their fellow men. Not all. You know that, you know that for sure and I know you do too. Do I know you. No. Depends. Bad advice, even if given or put under any label such as "art" or "opinion" does not justify itself, whether or not it is accepted as such.

Why? In this regard, this question is totally irrelevant.

Why? But ofcourse.

Why? Is this really how you feel Shian? Not very Zen after all.

Why? Exactly, why you care how people react to your "art" experiment troll post because you have the "know" and "wisdom" :D

The moment you commented again you proved that you - as a matter of fact - dont get it youself. Get it? You dont know the answer yet - no one does.

Was this far out enough to satisfy your search for whys? :D

shian

Why?

Nino_Ilacqua

Very and unimaginable dear Shian, thank you for sharing with us your deep knowledge. You had given us your unvaluable color knowledge and that was a precious gift: it alone would have gained to you the gratitude of posterity. But you wanted to do even more for us: you, holy man, gave us your fantastic Lynch Revelation Test, so we could fire those idiots who prevented us from winning an Oscar.

Now holy Shian I beg you for a last thing, that single sacred secret that You jeaolously keep. Please share it with us, share with us the very origin from where Your knowledge comes: your dog.

So far we can only imagine what an extraordinary story teller your dog is, and what baubautiful stories he tells you. We can only imagine the long winter evenings when your dog tells and you listen. No wonder that after that you dislike Lynch so much: it's different the style, it's different the content.

But, excuse me, it is a little eghoistic from your side to keep only for you your dog's lessons. So please, great Shian, share them with us, put your dog's creations on line, so that we can learn from him like You learnt from him. Put your dog's performances on Vimeo, so that one day, formed by your dog just as you have been formed, after having had many Oscars and having fired half of our crews, we could realize our real and only disire: to be like you, fulgid Shian!

Becouse your dog is the real master not only of filmmaking, but of everything which is Art and of everything which is "Art", and You his true prophet!

gameb

The only good thing about this topic is, that nobody has to ask "the question" anymore - we all understood it quite well - without asking.

endotoxic

@jeffharriger wow.

jeffharriger

What only a few people know is, Shian was offered work on the upcoming pictures by Mendes, Dominik, and David O. Russel, but then he tried to fire them for putting Lynch movies on their Sight and Sound top 10 lists over the summer. What confusion ensued! It was Who's the Boss writ large. Lots of name-calling. Russel even went home for TWO DAYS before a panicky cast - still pulling in their salaries but wanting to earn them the old fashioned way, by pretending - called up Robert De Niro, of all people, to bring him back (it was everyone's good fortune that De Niro was able to manage this with just a look (you know the look)). Another blessing: no one broke out the wikipedia, but someone on location of one of these pictures (I won't say who, but the name rhymes with Bad Shit) did manage to bring Tarr's Turin Horse into the conversation, and Gus Van Sant heard about this, Skyped in from Portland, and then it was really flying (if you know what I mean).

Mr. Brainwash is typing a heated response of his own, but with his blood turning to glue and all, it's taking a while, so let's keep this thread alive. Has anyone gone off on any Manny Farber termite art vs white elephant art trips, yet (I'm presuming one brave soul has read through the whole thing)?

shian

Why?

sicovdplas

@shian Cameron fired someone for saying "Hi" too him, this has nothing to do with the chamber.

what is art, since you still don't get it shian.

wikipedia: Art is a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities; this article focuses primarily on the visual arts, which includes the creation of images or objects in fields including painting, sculpture, printmaking, photography, and other visual media. Architecture is often included as one of the visual arts; however, like the decorative arts, it involves the creation of objects where the practical considerations of use are essential—in a way that they are usually not for a painting, for example. Music, theatre, film, dance, and other performing arts, as well as literature, and other media such as interactive media are included in a broader definition of art or the arts.[1] Until the 17th century, art referred to any skill or mastery and was not differentiated from crafts or sciences, but in modern usage the fine arts, where aesthetic considerations are paramount, are distinguished from acquired skills in general, and the decorative or applied arts.

Hallvalla

Man, if you're not a Lynch fan, I could understand how much his films would annoy someone. I have this mental image in my mind of Shian watching a little-dwarf-in-a-red-room-talking-backwards and Shian dumping two barrels into the screen, eyes twitching.

endotoxic

LOL (sorry vk this thread is flame at its finest)

Art is the perception of feelings and emotions through anything man can make.

When ANYTHING is voluntarily percived like art, it CAN become ARTFORMED. For instance you go to a gallery to see a painting, suddenly it gives you emotions, by seeing its colors, then the form becomes a shape, the shape a meaning, then the whole becomes a feeling, makes you happy, makes you sad. All this was interpreted by you by the way you wanted.

You go down the street listen to badly made music, aproach the sound, see a grate looking person playing awfull music. Makes you wana go, but it atracted your attention, listen a little bit more and disapointed you are, there is no talent there, but you see buch of people also listening. That was also art, it gave you emotion then a feeling. You go to the grand canyon you feel good thee se panorama, you say its art, its not man made, its not art.

The other way arround is DESIGN. Design has an aproach, with very clear goal in specific way. for example a chair, its made to sit, or a bed, its made to sleep. it has function first, SECONDLY becomes the feeling they put on it, maybe you love your bed, for you its art in sleeping form. You persived that way, but its made for sleeping.

MOVIES ARE MADE TO BE SEEN, THEY HAVE FIRST A FUNCTION THEY ARE DESIGNED TO TELL A STORY, THEN THE INTERPRETATION OF IT CAN BE TAKEN IN AN EMOTIONAL WAY MAKING YOUR FEELINGS EMERGE, CONVERTING IT IN ART. THE TRICK HERE IS THAT CINEMA NEEDS ALMOST ALL CLASIC ARTS TO HAVE A GOOD CONTROL AND RESULT FROM IT.

@shian hate the feeling of Lynch aproach, he don want to call it art, SO LET IT BE, its first a story, and for him it is not art. Its very good to have critics and points of view, if not the all would be the same shit.

Im a fan of Béla Tarr, you dont like lich maybe you should look more at satantango, or damnation, or werkemeister harmonies, to see where does linch extracts those feelings.

8hours from satan lol. take a look at minute 45:00 and see if you can handle it. ITS ART, its respected, but i just dont agree.

ahbleza

This is a very old argument.

Proof:

De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/de%20gustibus%20non%20est%20disputandum

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