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Atomos Ninja or any external recorder?
  • 62 Replies sorted by
  • MeierhansMeierhans

    @kazuo " Actually I discovered that 5DtoRGB software can do very smooth conforming as well. The only problem i have faced so far is sound." Fixing the sound problem is exactly what the Virtualdub preset is doing. It does a direct stream copy of the video (ergo no recompression, fast and lossless) and pitch corrected timestretch of the audio.

  • kazuokazuo

    @Ralph_B

    Thanks for the posts. Avisynth looks a little technical to me, to be honest it's a steep learning curve, but I want to better understand that part which fixes the red channel. It will help me make an informed decision to buy an external recorder. Cheers mate

  • Ralph_BRalph_B

    kazuo is right. I wrote the Avisynth script shortly after the GH2 was released. This was long before Vitaliy hacked the GH2. At the time it was the only way to get a super, high quality picture out of the camera, and it was definitely worth the effort. Now, of course, the situation is different.

  • kazuokazuo

    The Hyperdeck looks like a more solid device, but the cumulative cost of using SSD is forbidding. A 256GB disk can record only 12min of uncompressed footage. Perhaps with the upgraded avid codec, you will get more storage space, but imagine getting 3 SSDs. They cost more than the device itself!!!

    I was just thinking about BMC as well - the high cost of SSD will be deal breaker for some

  • kazuokazuo

    The 24p to 60p is strictly an NTSC problem. From all the posts here so far, it's clear if you live in NTSC land, you should safely use the hacks and forget about ext recorders. The need to workaround the issues far outweighs the benefits.

    For PAL users, conforming 24 to 25p sounds credible, but in the long haul, especially if the workflow is tight, such a process can become tedious. The Ninja and Hyperdeck are therefore more relevant to PAL land, despite the lingering chromatic issues.

  • goannagoanna

    @nomad

    A previous writer had failed to get FFmbc to re-encode from Ninja to ProRes. He must have asked Stef what was happening. Stef's reply,

    .". c'est le 24p qui est mal interprété en ProRes"

    means,

    "Straight GH2 HDMI doesn't convert to ProRes" (Sorry, sloppy translation last post).

    In the meantime, someone had posted the AviSynth script, which Stef recommends as the first part in a two-step conversion.

  • nomadnomad

    It's not a misinterpretation. Panny is packing 24p into 60p straight, which does NOT conform to a standard 3:2 pulldown, which should come in the NTSC frequencies which are not evenly divisible, like 23.98 or 59.97.

    How can you divide 60 by 24 without haven extra frames every few seconds? The AviSynth script is taking care of these odd frames.

  • goannagoanna

    Funny, I was just reading about an HDMI conversion on this [French language but writer STEF uses English language liberally] FFMbc forum.

    http://www.cameravideo.net/forum/dv-technique-generale-video-audio/17350-ffmbc.html

    Avec Panasonic GH2 en 24p

    The Panasonic GH2, however, sends out a clean HDMI signal. The down side is that the GH2 wraps the 24p footage into a 60p frame rate as it goes out. This means you have to strip the 3:2 pulldown off in post.

    GH2 HDMI output recorded with Atomos NINJA

    ... c'est le 24p qui est mal interprété en ProRes

    Du coup, début février, des petit malin avait sortie un Script sous AviSynth

    You also must record to a 4.2.2 codec. The script will not work well if you record to a 4.2.0 codec. The following codecs have been successfully tested: UT 422 codec, Cineform, Blackmagic MJPEG codec. [Avisynth script inserted here]

    I also recommend rolling the camera first, then starting the external capture. And stop the external capture before stopping the camera. This will give you the cleanest signal and avoid the discontinuity that occurs when the GH2 switches into and out of record.

    Writer STEF seems to have used the forum to collate a number of loosely related codec stuff. But the explanation is interesting. "... c'est le 24p qui est mal interprété en ProRes" It's the 24P which is badly interpreted by Pro res."

    I've seen that video somewhere else. Sorry if it's a re-posting.

  • kazuokazuo

    @Meierhans,

    Thanks dude for the heads up. Your workaround to turn 24 to 25p looks interesting. Actually I discovered that 5DtoRGB software can do very smooth conforming as well. The only problem i have faced so far is sound. Even with external recording, 24 to 25p footage does not sync well with recorded sound, after a while. I have actually gotten into numerous discussions with friends and fellow professionals, and we wanted to find out if sound has the equivalent issue with PAL and NTSC discrepancies. There must be a reason why the sound track would drift.

  • kavadnikavadni

    You need to remove the SSD and use a dock. You need MacDrive to read the drives. There is a utility for upgrading the firmware via usb. You need to install BMD's Desktop Video, it install a few codecs if you want to use the RAW.

  • nomadnomad

    The Ninja uses PC compatible directory structure (both versions), HyperDeck has Apple's and needs extra software to mount on a PC.

  • peternappeternap

    I don't know about the Ninja but the Hyperdeck also needs additional software to operate in a windows environment. That was a deal breaker. The Ninja 2 also costs almost 3 times the Hyperdeck.

  • nomadnomad

    The HyperDeck is nice, but it needs good SSDs, the Ninja will record on lower-spec SSDs and harddisks too. Plus, with the Ninja 2 in particular, you have a lot of nice extra features, while the HyperDeck is really barebones.

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    You know that you can convert your final product from 24 to 25 FPS without problems? http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/2687/24p-to-25p-conversionsconforms/p1

    I postet a Virtualdub Preset (last post first page), so you just render your Master to some lossless codec AVI, open it in Virtualdub, load preset and hit F7. The video is not recompressed with this method. Been doing so for a bunch of projects already.

    The chroma fix plugin in After Effects is pretty much self explaining. Just give it a try. No need for Avisynth anymore.

  • kazuokazuo

    @Gabel

    Thanks for the heads up. Seems like I am hearing there is a discernible difference for 25p. i read Martin Beek's description, and he did say that the blacks are darker, not crushed, but darker, and resolution is in general sharper. I would think that between a hack setting, and ext recorder, in 24p, the difference would be quite negligible. As @nomad pointed out, 25p does look and feel like an afterthought. Even with the hacks, I often wonder why 25p is never as good as 24p. For this matter, despite living in PAL land, I have been forced to shoot 24p if the client's distribution is via web streaming.

    Regarding the fixing of red channel, you mentioned its easy.. how do you go about it? Via avisynth or chroma plugins? Can you share your workflow?

    Hmm torn between hyperdeck and ninja. Hyperdeck can now record umcompressed on avid codec. But SSD costs are forbidding :(

  • GabelGabel

    @kazuo: Sorry, I was in a bit too much of a hurry when I wrote it. What I meant is that the difference in there. In 24p, there's not really a gain with the Ninja, but in 25 (with me being PAL land is standard) there is a positive difference. Sure, the chroma is a bit mangled, but an easy fix. But for 24p, I usually skip it. There the difference is too small (the image is much sharper and cleaner in 25p with the Ninja).

    @nomad: I got my Ninja for around $500 (a little less too) of a friend, which made it more reasonable. I needed an extra monitor anyway, so I use the Ninja for framing and my AC uses my SmallHD, which works well. But A LOT harder when your by yourself...

  • Amadeus5D2Amadeus5D2

    @meierhans ...sorry this is pixelbender kernel... for this chroma fix plugin you need pixelbender graph!

  • nomadnomad

    HBR is – even with the best settings – never as good as 24p, it was a kind of afterthought by Panny.

    So, you may see an advantage if you need PAL. In 24p it's a PITA, though. In my opinion even in PAL it isn't worth the extra money and the need for another machine to take care of. Unfortunately you can't start the Ninja automatically like some pro-cameras do. But your mileage may vary.

  • kazuokazuo

    @Gabel Sorry dun quite understand you dude. "In 25p, it's there" What's there? Chroma aberrations in the red channel? If the jaggies are there, then how could the ninja be a "great gain?"

    Appreciate if you could make yourself clearer thanks

  • GabelGabel

    I use a Ninja with mine. While the hack is great and in 24p I notice very little difference, in 25p it's there. As I live in Sweden (PAL) 25p is what I use mostly, so then a Ninja is a great gain!

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    If you are running CS6 you might try running the before mentioned pixel bender shader trough this: http://aescripts.com/pixel-bender-kernel-accelerator/

  • Ralph_BRalph_B

    Or try Sanity 5. You might be amazed at how good it looks with even less bit rate.

    http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/2642/sanity-4-and-5/p1

    Regarding HDMI capture: If you use it in PAL, you don't have the pulldown issues NTSC has, but you still have the mangled chroma problem in the red channel. You can either

    1. do nothing, or

    2. you can fix it with the Chroma Fix in the Avisynth script.

  • nomadnomad

    I did very careful testing with a Ninja for a German magazine.

    While it's feasible in PAL (HBR), you don't gain much vs. the best intra hacks here. Rather spend your money on 64 GB 95 Sandisk cards and go Sedna, CM, AN (or soon Intra-Venus).

  • Amadeus5D2Amadeus5D2

    @kazuo the plugin is not compatible with AE CS6! ??

  • kavadnikavadni

    I don't think I am particularly well informed, or have a full understanding of digital.

    I have a film background (mostly 16) .. I took a 12 year break to be a single parent .. I paused when a digibeta camera was $80k and I was lucky to shoot on SP .. I come back to this .. what I can do with my equipment would have cost me more than a 1/2 million bucks in gear 12 years ago .. my investment .. about 25k

    I passed on the ninja because of the issue I read about .. I bought the first hyperdeck for uncompressed keying with my EX1 .. then I just plugged in my GH2 .. um .. no issues for PAL .. there could be some .. maybe I am too stupid or uninformed to realise.

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