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Dynamic range test between GH2 and 7D
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  • @cowpunk52 ok, it will settle the argument.
  • This I think is the only test on a chart of the gh2 in a german magazine. I don't know how to interpret the result. If someone can please do.

    http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Panasonic-GH2---der-kompakte-Ueberflieger--Aus-dem-Messlabor.html
  • @danyyyel - i'll have a resolution chart after the holidays, i'll run another test then.
  • This is why proper test are important and thus what I tried with what I had for the gh2 Dynamic range. I see endless debate about the gh2 resolution. I saw these example below

    http://philipbloom.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/4.jpg

    http://philipbloom.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/9.jpg

    http://philipbloom.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/7.jpg

    From the pb test. If people say the C300 is 1000 line so how much would you give the gh2. Factoring the smaller head because of the fOV, I would say very very close. But then all this is subjective. I hope someday somebody does a proper test on a chart. Perhaps one or both of you. Or just try to put both of them in good lighting condition where you can close the shutter and use some sharp lens. For the Gh2 its 14-140 is already very sharp and see the result and publish them with all the details.
  • @johnnym - My comparison is in the same thread as bwhitz's, a little further down. 1:1 center crop shots of a US $20 bill.

    I'm not trying to put an emphasis on resolution here. I just wanted to know how the gh2 performed. I don't care what the numbers are, i'm still dp'ing a feature in January with 2 gh2's. It gives fantastic images regardless of measurements. I just don't think incorrect data should be presented as fact, i.e. that the GH2 is a 1000 TVL camcorder, when the overwhelming majority of independent test results show otherwise.
  • I haven't seen your test. (Where's the link?) But I'm neither implying bwhitz's test is flawed. I also don't care about resolution, but if you say bwhitz's test didn't have much fine detail, look at the numberplates.
  • @johnnym - yes i saw that. That's what got me curious, and that's where i posted my own results. I had good light, low iso, excellent lenses set to sharpest apertures, and a subject with extremely fine detail. I posted my center crop samples along with settings data. Why would you think my test was faulty and not bwhitz's, which was done in bad light, on a scene where there wasn't a lot of very fine detail, and we don't know what the settings were?
  • Have you seen the recent EX3 and GH2 comparison? I don't care about resolution, but since i saw much more detail in the GH2 footage than in the EX3, regardless of how you calculate the resolution, i need to tell you that something in your test is probably flawed. Unless that comparison used one very soft lens for the EX3 footage.
    http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/1769/gh2-vs-ex3-stills...-#Item_15
  • @bwhitz - a camera with three 1920x1080 sensors can easily resolve a 1000 tvl picture when shooting HD format. That's why the XF300 can do it, as well as the EX3, HPX250, PMW350, HPX3100, and a bunch of other full-raster 1080p camcorders. The GH2 cannot. I posted a sample in the other thread that clearly demonstrated that the XF300 can resolve more detail than the GH2. If you can't see the difference, it's because you're choosing not to; it's very clear. I estimated the GH2 at approx 800 TVL based on how it compared to the XF300 and what i know about that camera's resolving power - i.e. over 1000 TVL. Contrary to what you might believe you know about me, I would love for the GH2 to be able to resolve 1000 TVL. But it doesn't. You're the only person i've ever come across that says that it does. But your claims aren't supported by any other available test here or any other forum or website, and it's not supported by my own test. This isn't a conspiracy, it's just quantifiable data. If you're in LA, i'd be happy to meet up and test with you so you don't keep going on about every forum member on every camera site being a bunch of old sour grapes trying to protect old camcorder investments. You know that's not the case, and if you really believe it... Well, there's no sense in trying to convince you otherwise. But here's an idea - if you want to prove everyone wrong, then just shoot a test chart! Show us that HD video from a GH2 can resolve more than 1000 TVL! I want to believe, i really do - but the funny thing about faith is that it doesn't make facts any less true.
  • @Ptchaw

    I mean colors and such as well. The GH2 is overall more punchy like the Red MX. Even if you desaturate and gaussian blur the GH2 is still doesn't have the same look. I think of them like different film stocks...

    7D is softer, more traditional, Kodak-stock look. GH2 is punchy and new-age digital cinema.

    @cowpunk52 "It's still very very good, especially for a dslr."

    This has absolutely nothing to do with how a camera performs image wise. A few DSLRs right now are much more advanced technology wise than video cameras. I don't see any "video cameras" downscaling from a 5k image besides the Alexa (which is really not a video cameras either). They're mostly native 1080p chips. And native chips NEVER resolve as well as a properly down-sampled image.

    "Some have claimed that the gh2 resolves more than 1000 TVL, but that's unfortunately not correct."

    No, you just don't want it to for one reason or another. But it does. I don't know where you're getting the 800 line measurement. The Zacuto test measured the 5D at around 800 lines. The GH2 is sampling a 5K image... it easily matches and/or out resolves any native sensor (like the EX3, as I've demonstrated). And the XF is not really close. I've been working with XF footage allot last week and it barley out resolves a 5D/7D... but it doesn't matter because the detail, even with it being sharper, looks worse and more digital.
  • @danyyyel the resolution chart you found echoes my experiences with the gh2's performance. I visually pegged it at around 800 TVL when compared to an XF300, so i would say that chart is accurate. It's still very very good, especially for a dslr.

    Some have claimed that the gh2 resolves more than 1000 TVL, but that's unfortunately not correct. It wouldn't alias or moire at all if that were the case, but under the right circumstances it definitely will.
  • > I still have my 7D. It's great when you need a softer look.
    @bwhitz As is a gaussian blur
  • I believe the EX1 was using an external recorder.
  • @brianluce "Nice test. Probably not a lot of participation because us GH2 cult members consider the 7d as a peasant's tool."

    I still have my 7D. It's great when you need a softer look. And I still like the menu layout better than the GH2...

    Anyways, I'd love to be adding some examples to this thread, but my 7D is not with me at the moment...

    @danyyyel "Look here another example http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-lumix-gf-gh-series/503321-how-many-lines-resolution-gh2.html I just saw that yesterday, do you think it is real!!!!!!!"

    Nope. Allot of people are threatened by a $800 camera that performs this well. Expect some vindictive testing... This is really the only site I trust anymore for accurate examples. Pretty much every other site just has a bunch of old Varicam and HVX users that are trying to protect their $40,000 2/3" camera investments and just aren't realizing how far behind proper "video cameras" are technology wise.

    So although your test might just be quick and less technical, it's just much more trustworthy in the end... thanks!

    @danyyyel " have made one test yesterday about what I would call lens DR. These test have use quite a contrasty Tamron 17-50, I have bought an old 28-90 vivitar 1 FD lens and look how it affected DR etc."

    I'm really interested in this. In my own experience... If the GH2 (just as an example) had 10stops with Canon L series or Nikon glass, then it would have 8-9stops with Olympus, and then 7-8 stops with Panny glass.
  • @andres Yes but I lost mine, I was planning to buy some small chart from BH, but as I live on the other side of the world, I have to wait when I am going to buy more things because if else the shipping is going to cost more than it. So when I saw the philip bloom test decided to do without.
  • @brianluce I refered to the zacuto great camera shootout, where they measured the 7D to 11 stop of DR. like you can see here http://nofilmschool.com/2011/06/zacuto-unleashes-great-camera-shootout-2011/ so my guess is that the gh2 is not far from it, if mot better. My aim was to quantify from a known camera, because unfortunately the gh2 has nearly no proper test.

    Unfotunately I have no red to compare it with and I have asked repeatedly if the people who had one could do it , but to no avail. Humbly I did take my time and some method to test it because the other people did not do the test, with what I had, be it the lowly 7d. Look at the philip Bloom test, it provoked a lot of reaction because at first sight it looked like the gh2 was beaten by every other camera except the Af100 in DR. With a little research I saw that it was not necessarily the case. So I device this test.

    It is good to have some quantifiable test because it can stop the speculation. On one side you have people saying as if the gh2 the best thing since slice bread on the other they are always dishing it, someone was claiming not long ago that it was not resolving more than 600-700 line!!!!!!!!!! Look here another example http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-lumix-gf-gh-series/503321-how-many-lines-resolution-gh2.html I just saw that yesterday, do you think it is real!!!!!!! Each and every place you find people saying "hey it has limited DR, small sensor, hey the highlight is not x or y". It is good with some test to put it in context. What it is and what it is not. At least someday when some people will claim that their Canon has better DR, perhaps someone will refer to this test if it is the case or not.

    What I wanted after the first test was to see how much we could manipulate/push the image and shadows in particular. I just wanted to share it with the community hopping that that the ever, hey it has limited DR to my DSLR x,y or z.
  • Nice test. Probably not a lot of participation because us GH2 cult members consider the 7d as a peasant's tool. We get interested when our beloved camera is matched against Red Epics and Arri Alexas.
    I'm a little confused by your results, you got 11 stops from the GH2 or the 7d?

  • @itimjim, sure it is more a tecnical test than an esthetic one. The shadow/highlight tool, in photoshop can be quite aggressive, it really separates the black (in this case) compared to a normal curve. Something like the image below would be more acceptable. But in motion the posterisation is much less visible because it is noise and very grain like. So it moves to the human eye looks smoother. Should get a way to post the mts. So anyone can play and test so that we can derive some conclusion about the level of push that would be acceptable. Sure the level of acceptable noise is a very subjective thing.

    orriginal driftwood mts test beauty.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 628K
  • It would be nice to add a grey card in your test to know where is the base of your exposure and to see how much highlight space we have there. It is good to know how much can we lift our shadows. Underexposing and then lifting to match a good exposed image.
  • @danyyyel I like your tests, and this topic. I would say the image pushed in photoshop looks borderline unusable, but it is hard to tell without seeing motion. It may blend better as a sequence of frames.

    I'm sure that pushing the darks just a little less would result in a usable image.
  • @adventsam, lets say that after 350 views, I was expecting a little bit more participation. I myself is experimenting, my method could be completely flawed etc... Even if it started as a comparison, there are many more thing to experiment and to learn for me about the gh2 image. If you look at the last boosted image, we can start to quantify how much we can dig into the shadows, so we could protect more our highlight in more contrasty lighting. We can also test about different ISO and the impact on DR.

    I have made one test yesterday about what I would call lens DR. These test have use quite a contrasty Tamron 17-50, I have bought an old 28-90 vivitar 1 FD lens and look how it affected DR etc. So in the end we could know how to expose even for human being (overexpose, underexpose) for skin tone, at least what is a safe zone. Lets say that those thing are vital for me and was looking for such topic... until I had to do my own ;-)
  • They are 160 ISO, so as to remove any confusion about the numbers.
  • DR will also decrease with higher ISO. ISO 160 should have the most DR going from similar tests.
  • I post this other image because I could not remove the other one. The only difference is that I forgot about the value on the wall just above the bear ear. I have also posted a boosted image using photoshop shadow/highlight to show a bit more what is in the shadow. It is quite extreme to separate the different level in the shadows, it does not mean that they are usable, this needs discussion.



    orriginal dynamic range value 2.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 539K
    boosted orriginal driftwood mts.png
    1920 x 1080 - 6M
  • I have made some reading with my spot meter to get a better value of the DR of the scene. I have put an image below with the values in the speed of the shutter at different point (they were normalise to 400 Iso). So it span from 1/6400 to 1/6 which is 11 stop. Now I could no go lower than the 1/6 because my spot meter could not measure it (even at 3200 iso). I think you can get a good stop more differentiation in the shadows. The highlight also is a bit complicated because of the clipping point. I will have to see if I can measure where it clips exactly.
    orriginal driftwood dynamic range value.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 537K