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Fuck ownership, you have only implied license to operate your dick
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    In a particularly spectacular display of corporate delusion, John Deere—the world’s largest agricultural machinery maker —told the Copyright Office that farmers don’t own their tractors. Because computer code snakes through the DNA of modern tractors, farmers receive “an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

    Several manufacturers recently submitted similar comments to the Copyright Office under an inquiry into the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

    http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

    http://www.agweb.com/blog/janzen-ag-law-blog/does-john-deere-really-own-your-tractor/

  • 41 Replies sorted by
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

  • kurthkurth

    @Vitaliy hope your right...however...look at trump supporters. They would put down the welcome mats ( and slay anyone who disagrees) to follow their leader to hell. It'll go one way.... or the other.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @kurth

    I am much more optimistic :-)

    While capitalism will try to turn into surveillance state with online transaction and realtime tracking, it will fail miserably.

    It turns into such thing not because any tech progress thing, but due to constantly increasing inequality and shrinking number of big capitalists.

    I think we'll soon see dramatic turn, it'll be tragedy for elites, tragedy of extreme proportions, one that exploiters will be telling to each other for thousands of years.

  • kurthkurth

    I had a good friend who lived on the street and dumpster dove for 5 years...then he got his phd in economics. He had a unique perspective. It depends on what one defines as capitalist. To many, china is a capitalist country. Capitalism's survival will obviously require totalitarian instruments, which we already see being implemented. There was a little film called In Time which showed fairly accurately where we're headed concerning rfid's and money. So as long as we don't have a thermonuclear conflict or a 90% pandemic with weaponized virus...sound familiar... capitalism will continue to transform into a totalitarian state with a capitalist ruling class and slaves. It's almost there today. People almost lay down the red carpets. @garroulus ...the thing about today is...people always had curious searching minds, but the information is so tainted it takes more energy than most are willing to give, to arrive at some kernal of truth.

  • garroulusgarroulus

    Only gringos or europeans could say it's the best time to be alive. Ask the people working the trash dumps in Nairobi or Cairo how they're doing.

    Yes i'm european and i had a very hard life and i knew people ho lived from trash. I was referring to the curious and searching mind that never before could see understand and live so much. It's like being on a mountain and seeing the things from the valley of course in a selfish way because can't change nothing.

    I am not sure that capitalism will survive till this moment.

    You don't have to be a prophet it's almost obvious.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Marx was insightful about foreseeing where capitalism's final journey will take us, although during his time, credit for common people wasn't widespread nor necessary except as indentured slavery, which goes right to the point of who owned the means of production.

    Actually, credit WAS necessary, but issue was that workers back in the day had almost nothing to provide for the bank.

    Nevertheless I don't see anything utopic convincing the masses to abandon using their instruments of credit as a way to regain control, or rather to deny the elites power.

    It won't help in any way to regain control, only to reduce life level of workers.

    Credit, rightfully so, is also viewed as efficient way to gain competitive advantage. And note - that competition for products made from finite resources consist from future generations also.

    Their power is fundamentally based on their owning the due note.

    It is part of ruling class tools, useful and powerful. But it is not source of power.

    In 30 years, when you're chipped and money is just digital noise, it'll be a far different war.

    I am not sure that capitalism will survive till this moment.

  • kurthkurth

    Only gringos or europeans could say it's the best time to be alive. Ask the people working the trash dumps in Nairobi or Cairo how they're doing. In america the only people living happily productive lives outside the system are dumpster divers. The system makes certain of that. Marx was insightful about foreseeing where capitalism's final journey will take us, although during his time, credit for common people wasn't widespread nor necessary except as indentured slavery, which goes right to the point of who owned the means of production. Things didn't go south until banksters invented fractional reserve banking. Nevertheless I don't see anything utopic convincing the masses to abandon using their instruments of credit as a way to regain control, or rather to deny the elites power. Their power is fundamentally based on their owning the due note. Of course that's where we stand at the moment. In 30 years, when you're chipped and money is just digital noise, it'll be a far different war.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    but i belive it's the best time to be alive never before we couldn't see such a wide view of history and life

    Best time to be alive is the time where you could actually affect any product or service made.

    And not hear some nice looking PR guy (who does not understand anything!) telling you how it does not fit their marketing strategy or profit growth program. :-)

  • garroulusgarroulus

    Due to way capitalism works - you can't go without credit being mass used tool. It is basics.

    I know first hand. My field of working and traveling it's getting smaller and smaller.

    The modern society it's built on a bubble artificially sustained( but i belive it's the best time to be alive never before we couldn't see such a wide view of history and life) witch sooner or later will broken...

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @garroulus

    I didn't had i don't have and i don't intend to have a credit card. I don't have nothing on my one as property and iv been living across europe and usa. I could be the last dinosaur but i am not.

    Due to way capitalism works - you can't go without credit being mass used tool. It is basics.

    Whole point is to make profit, and hence all workers get less than products they made will cost. So, either you'll have horrible overproduction crisis (read history on how it looks), or you provide them credit money. Such way you'll have even worse crisis, but not today :-) Plus big inflation on home prices (inflating price of house allow you to give more credit to its owner!) and basic things.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @kurth

    A utopia is an imagined community or society that possesses highly desirable or nearly perfect qualities for its citizens.

    No one talked about you, but you can't get same thing working with current society. It is just nice dreams.

    In Mexico, no one is ever deproperty-ized for not paying taxes, ever. I've known cases where property taxes are unpaid for 2 decades, and they still own the property.

    As guy who lives in country that slowly goes from Mexico to US state, I can assure you - if ruling class gains power it'll be like US or even worse.

    And if changing the system is based on denying intellectual property rights to the people who come up with the ideas, then what' s the impetus for invention ? Inventors have always benefited from their ideas, from bows and arrows up until corporations prevented them from doing so, beginning around the time of tesla. The only other alternative is the state owns everything, and that's the worst outcome of all. State's are the peoples worst enemy.

    Lets first make simplified definition of the state.

    Modern state is nothing but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.

    Did inventor of new arrow end manufacturing in ancient tribe had copyright? Nope.

    Thing that you try to express is that you are being worried on that will happen if we'll leave capitalism intact but destroy patents and copyright. Well, big issues with capitalism will appear, as it is not sustainable state. So, either ruling class will be able to restore this things (despite society interests), or ruling class will stop be ruling class and will be repressed.

  • garroulusgarroulus

    I didn't had i don't have and i don't intend to have a credit card. I don't have nothing on my one as property and iv been living across europe and usa. I could be the last dinosaur but i am not.

    Anyhow to the topic it's getting ridiculous. As a matter of fact it's much more than ridiculous.

  • kurthkurth

    Utopia ? I've lived w/o a credit card for 15 years...it doesn't suck. Get a debit card ! Every time someone charges , they borrow. Every time someone borrows they reinforce the system. In the usa, if you want to own a house, you have to make a contract with the banksters. In Mexico people never finance their homes. That's why there's so many homeless in the usa and almost none in mexico. As well, americans are always loosing their homes to the state, mostly for unpaid taxes. In Mexico, no one is ever deproperty-ized for not paying taxes, ever. I've known cases where property taxes are unpaid for 2 decades, and they still own the property. In michigan this last year, a man had his home confiscated by the state for underpaying his taxes by 8 dollars. And yes the people at apple cleaning their bathrooms will protect their bosses. Maybe not at amazon, but definitely at corporations such as apple...and many others. And if changing the system is based on denying intellectual property rights to the people who come up with the ideas, then what' s the impetus for invention ? Inventors have always benefited from their ideas, from bows and arrows up until corporations prevented them from doing so, beginning around the time of tesla. The only other alternative is the state owns everything, and that's the worst outcome of all. State's are the peoples worst enemy.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Even people who work at apple cleaning the bathrooms will protect the 1%.

    No, they won't. Just history lessons.

    And the problem with the modern intellectual property system is that it's been hijacked by the corporations, not that it shouldn't exist. If corporations couldn't force their workers to sign away their rights, things would be different.

    I don't remember exact topic, but I explained why it is not such. It is loving argument of Austrian economists. You can't turn history back and make it 19th century.

    Every time someone uses a credit card , they shore up the system. Capitalism will only be put back into it's cage by denying it it's meal...or thermonuclear war.

    Both options suck and won't work. One is just utopia and another is genocide.

  • kurthkurth

    @Vitaliy...you underestimate the power of belonging. Even people who work at apple cleaning the bathrooms will protect the 1%. And the problem with the modern intellectual property system is that it's been hijacked by the corporations, not that it shouldn't exist. If corporations couldn't force their workers to sign away their rights, things would be different. And further , the only way to begin peeling all this back, is thru non participation. Every time someone uses a credit card , they shore up the system. Capitalism will only be put back into it's cage by denying it it's meal...or thermonuclear war.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @kurth

    Well, if we want to destroy capitalism, first we need to destroy copyright and patents system, as it is pillars of modern capitalism.

    Idea of "buy another thing" does not work during imperialism, and each year it is worse. You just do not have any viable alternatives, and ones you sometimes have require either much bigger money or time spending.

    People can screw john deere( and apple) and the totalitarian regime they belong to, by simply denying their support.

    It is wrong idea. From all Apple and John Deer empires it is less than 1% that actually do 100% of all damaging stuff, And instead you ask to dump 99% of good engineers and other people. I much more prefer to repress this 1%.

  • kurthkurth

    Piracy is exactly where this leads. Of course , the vast majority of patent owners never owned their own patents. Most patents are granted to institutions, either corporate or educational. Corporate makes every worker developing new tech sign an nda renouncing any claims to ownership, and educational institutions , while more generous in sharing any profits with inventors, have intellectual property agreements that progressively give all ownership eventually to the institution. They make certain the bottom line has their name, not the inventor. But the most important feature of intellectual property is that it only works inside the 5 eyes empire. Anyone who torrents films knows most countries are completely safe from copyright claims. Of course Russia and China have their own types of control which sometime align and sometimes contradict the 5 eyes empire. Back to tractors...I grew up riding john deere tractors. A tractor was so simple even dustbowl farmers could repair them...most of the time with baling wire. I'd wager these days 98% of american farmers are incapable of repairing anything to do with computerized ignition anyway. And surely there's options other than john deere that manufacture simple tractors like the good ole days. Let the buying power talk with their wallets. Just the same way many of us have switched to other operating systems rather than apple. If apple hadn't of produced the iphone, they'd be back in 1997. Unless of course, someone really wants a $50,000 computer. People can screw john deere( and apple) and the totalitarian regime they belong to, by simply denying their support. Of course most slaves become so because it's more convenient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tractor_manufacturers_of_the_United_States

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    This is where copyright shit leads

  • DouglasHornDouglasHorn

    @robertGL - Sure. I just meant in general.

  • robertGLrobertGL

    @DouglasHorn depends on the farmer.. My extended family owns much farmland where I live, and they don't touch any tractor. I think the local farming supply company provides equipment, and some hired hands drive the equipment from field to field.

  • DouglasHornDouglasHorn

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev - Thanks for the article. It's a good one. There's a lot to this issue. JD is creating a situation where farmers can either pay exorbitant prices for official service or get software from unknown sources--which is potentially as bad for their gear as the fears people have about JD. It opens an opportunity for malicious code to get into a lot of tractors.

    Farmers are generally Fix-it-yourself types anyway and hate being told that they have to pay someone for a part they can simply repair. Right now farmers are getting so squeezed with low commodity prices that they are barely making it.

    Of course, the next generation of the software will just get smarter and check for a license once a month like Adobe -- and not start without it.

  • Nino_IlacquaNino_Ilacqua

    Capitalistic expropriation of means of production....

  • 4CardsMan4CardsMan

    Seems like there should be a lively trade in aftermarket dumb systems, such as distributors and points. Trust me, I will never drive a smart car or have a smart appliance in my house. But the general public is so entranced by the Internet that they will buy anything to keep from looking backward.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    As I know they force to sign this

    https://www.deere.com/privacy_and_data/docs/agreement_pdfs/english/2016-10-28-Embedded-Software-EULA.pdf

    About soft

    image

    Article about hacks - https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware

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