Personal View site logo
PAL or NTSC for web/computers?
  • This is a really fundamental question that I realized I don't really understand. People at different places all around the world are filming with different frame rates PAl or NTSC. So every day I will view both PAL and NTSC videos on my computer. Does the frame rates only matter when watching on a TV (but many modern TVs have adjustable refresh rates?) or while recording to reduce flickering of lights? Isn't Win 7 default refresh rate 60Hz? Wouldn't that make NTSC more suitable for viewing on computers even in PAL-countries? Is NTSC the ideal web-distribution format since Win 7 often uses 60Hz refresh rate to make the videos display smoothly?

    How does it work, does PAL or NTSC matter for web distribution or computer viewing? I couldn't find any answer in any other thread.

  • 49 Replies sorted by
  • after all that have said about all pc monitors are 60Hz and if we shoot for net and pc playback. would it be okey to shoot at 30fps and 60fps for better motion in PAL land especially at night time indoors or outdoors under the 50Hz city lights using 25 and 50 shutter speed to avoid flickering. I hope I am not out of topic. thanks in advance.

  • The Display in my Macbook is manufactured Samsung, a LTN170CT10-G01. The Datasheet is easy to find. According to the datasheet, the display is rated at 1920x1200@60hz. Macs do not display refresh rates in the system preferences/control panels at all, not very professional. But apps like SwitchresX do. With SwitchresX, I was able to change the frame rate to 72hz(for 24p) and 75hz(50P/Pal). Pans displayed in those frame are now smoother. I was also able to achieve 72hz@1920x1080 with my preview monitor, an NEC EA323WMI. But for displaying 75hz in the NEC, I had to lower the resolution to 1440x810. But SwitchResX has no turorial. You fiddle around with back porches, front porches and other values, without exactly knowing what you are doing. The PC-variant is Powerstrip, as far as I know. Are there any databases to look up desired and possible scan rates? As one example, in theory 1920x1080@75 refresh rate should be displayable with my NEC Monitor, but in real life, it is not.

  • @balazer Thanks you your answer. I asked, because Edius gives all those different framerates. It let you choose 29.97 and 30, 59,94 and 60 as well as many others.. I do not know why Edius gave the message, maybe I had some other setting wrong. But when I merely wanted to change the 50p to 30p Edius gave the mesage: not possible.

  • In the video world when we say 24, 30, or 60 fps, we almost always really mean that frame rate times 1000/1001, i.e., 23.976, 29.970, or 59.940 fps (approximate). A difference of 1 in 1001 is practically unnoticeable if the difference is made up by repeating one frame in a thousand, which is how your computer will handle the frame rate difference during playback. So, yes, it's just as good. And you might have made things worse by rendering out at 30.000 instead of 29.970 (if your NLE had let you), because your NLE might decide to do a screwy frame rate conversion with blended frames.

    But there's usually no reason to render 720p out as 1080p. You should be able to render out in 720-line 29.970 fps.

  • I just tried to renter a 30p file out of a 720 timeline. Was not possible. Also a 1080 30p was not possible.

    What worked was 1080 29.97 p

    Is that equally good for playback on a computer as 30p?

  • I saw somewhere how you can author a Blue Ray to 60fps if your clients wants. Many modern players will support 60 but it would be wise to author in a menu with both 60 and 30 (or 24 or whatever) options. Then grandma can view the wedding:).

  • Yep, I can also confirm 50p also runs perfectly smooth on my 60Hz monitors and laptop, but not 25p.

  • @AKED

    Very strange indeed. Perhaps your computer monitor really is running at 50Hz.

  • Depends on software also.

    On a Mac without dedicated (Pal) video cards, FCP 7 produces unsmooth, fullframe PAL-playback with my 2011 Macbook, also on the 50hz plasma. I guess it is jerky because fullscreen playback on the plasma syncs with the Canvas (Recorder Window) on the laptops monitor , which runs @60 hz.

    But when I open my finished edit in Quicktime and watch it fon the plasma, playback is smooth.

    With the older Macbook mentioned before, I could overcome this FCP problem with Swith ResX and force the laptops own display to work with 75hz or 50hz. This trick unfortunately does not work with newer Macbooks.

    PC-world, Avid: No problem when working on an Avid because 90% of all Avid Systems are sold with dedicated video hardware. Class A Video monitors are used.(We have 6 Symphony at work) But still, when you watch Pal material on the Avid´s playback window on the computer´s desktop, you will see teared motion. But this is not the monitor to look at anyway.

  • No, not really. When I play the 50p on the computer, it runs smooth. Strange, isn't it?

  • Great discussion.

    So if computer monitors world wide run at 60Hz, then PAL people must see 50P playback rather unsmooth. Correct?

  • Yes, they do all SUPPORT all standard resolutions and framerates. But what ist the native refresh-rate of the display? And this is what it is about. Does a TV render motion unaltered? I.e. computer monitors: My NEC-Multisync EA232 supports frequencies of 50 hz. But native display works with 60 hz. Pans are inconsistient and juddery. feeding it with 50h, 75 hz does not change a bit. In good old days the heavy (but dark) computer CRTs displayed the refresh rate they got natively.

    I made a qick shutter test with my plasma TV: Filming the display with 50hz shutter, there is almost no flicker. When I change the Mac to 60hz, the Plasma flickers as hell. So with this Plasma I can be sure it displays the frequency it gets. Unluckily, this test does not work with LCD Panels, or at least LED-based ones. Files are one second, zipped mp4 in sd resolution.

    Plasma50hz_50hzshutter.zip
    166K
    Plasma60hz_50hzshutter.zip
    211K
  • What is cheaper in mass production: Build one TV Panel and have one chip do the conversion to the panels native frequency (I assume 60hz), or built two, one designed for 50hz, one for 60hz. Two panels to deal with 23,976 Blu Ray playback or your favorite NTSC-DVD from Japan or watch web-content...

    All modern TVs are build on highly integrated LSIs like ones you see inside tablets and phones. They have ARM cores (many present ones - dual ARM A9 cores, next year ones will have quad cores) and many other things. All of them support all standard resolutions and framerates. Same as all LCD panels that are connected using LVDS to thic chips.

  • Because even though more people on the world watch PAL/SECAM television, 60hz is the dominant refresh rate (because of computer monitors) for mass production.

    What is cheaper in mass production: Build one TV Panel and have one IC do the conversion to the panels native frequency (I assume 60hz), or built two, one designed for 50hz, one for 60hz. Layout of the boards sholuld not be much different, also parts should be 95% the same. But 5% make a difference in profit. Also two panels wtith different basic frequencies would have to deal with 23,976 Blu Ray playback or watch your favorite NTSC-DVD from Japan or watch 30hz web-content...? I´ll almost bet they have cut corners and the only real differece is the DVBT circuitry.

  • The LG interpreted the Mac´s DVI connection as 60hz only. The Panasonic did interpret 50/60hz

    It is really talk about interpretation of your computer. And how monitor report supported resolution. I can tell you as fact - LG 2010 models perfectly work in both 1080p50 and 1080p60 both via HDMI cable and via DVI to HDMI cable. Thi is same for 2011 and 2012 models. I am talking about EU models.

    But can you proof that the European models do run on 50hz natively without any interpolation to 60hz?

    Can you tell me why the hell they need "interpolation to 60hz"?

  • @Vitaliy It does tell A LOT: - The LG interpreted the Mac´s DVI connection as 60hz only. The Panasonic did interpret 50/60hz. - It should not count wether my notebook is modern or not. - DVI / HDMI is a standard. It should not count wether you connect Mac or PC.

    Well, at least LG did sell one Flatscreen less - BTW I also remember, that picture enhancement like artificial sharpening could not be completely turned off. The Panasonic did not offer this "enhancements" at all another plus.

    LG might produce different models for the US/European markets. But can you proof that the European models do run on 50hz natively without any interpolation to 60hz? BTW, while writing this, it just came into my mind that by using the shutters of our beloved cameras, this should be easily found out. Or are only changing pixels refreshed?

  • Took my 2008 Macbook Pro to the local dealer around 2010, attached it to several LG´s they all displayed 60hz ONLY as secondary display.

    I does not tell anything. First, it is better idea to use modern PC notebook. Second, all 2010 LG models I know offered choice of multiple resolutions without any issues, including 24p, 30p, 50p and 60p in 1080 resolution.

    Here it is good to note that LG is making different models for EU and US markets. Sometimes they are almost the same, sometimes absolutely different.

  • @Ralph_B 60hz The only computer monitor I know that truly displays 50hz without internal conversion to 60hz is the EIZO Foris FX2431 mentioned above.

    @Vitaly Took my 2008 Macbook Pro to the local dealer around 2010, attached it to several LG´s they all displayed 60hz ONLY as secondary display. No way to change this in the Mac or TV preferences. I would have been forced to use "DisplayConfigX" or "SwitchResX" (same as "Powerstrip" for PC) to trick those TV´s. But as I said, the TH-42PZ70E offered 50/60hz choices, interlaced and progressive, in 1080, as defaults.

  • 60 Hz. At least mine run on 60 Hz and they are on default.

  • New question:

    What is the scan rate of computer monitors in PAL countries, 50Hz or 60Hz?

  • Looking for a new Flatscreen abour 2 years ago, I found out that the current models (most of them fron LG) demanded 60hz refresh rate from my Mac laptop only - not 50hz ,as I live in PAL region

    All LG TVs I checked worked with 50Hz.

    All this require real and systematic testing, not just fast "demand" and "convert" claims.

  • With the GH2 I shoot at 50p, to avoid jerk problems. It looks good on PC and TV, had only one time problems with lights flicks. When I get the GH3 I will switch to 30p and 60p when I will slow down the footage.

  • Back to the PAL/NTSC-Problem: Looking for a new Flatscreen abour 2 years ago, I found out that the current models (most of them fron LG) demanded 60hz refresh rate from my Mac laptop only - not 50hz ,as I live in PAL region. Will be the same with PC. Ended up in buying a used Panasonic TH-42PZ70E Plasma from a friend, which offers 50I/50p / 60i / 60p. He used it for 3D animation. Same with Displays. Only one on the market - EIZO Foris FX2431 as far as I know - offers true 50hz. All others, like NEC Multisyncs, do convert internally to 60hz and I assume, also many TV´s. Ever wondered, why they are touting scan rates based on 60 but not 50hz? One classical route for 60hz display (as well as 60p): Convert 24fps tp 60 based on 2:3 pulldown

  • @Ralph_B
    I do not have After Effects. I use Edius. I do not know which way it converts. I can render an NTSC file from the PAL timeline, but I have been tole the best way would be, to
    The way I have be to render highest quality HD, then ceate a NTSC project, import the HD fiile into the NTSC timeline and then export as NTSC file. But I will inquire. Thnaks fro the help. The PAL-NTSC DVD player question is clear?

  • @AKED

    If you convert from 50P to 30P, you can do it three ways. From poorest to best: 1) Simple frame skipping 2) frame blending 3) Frame interpolation (ala Twixtor or After Effects with Quality set to best)

    Most editing programs do frame blending as their default method of changing frame rates. It's sort of OK, but not great. The advantage is it renders fast. But the best way to change frame rates is to use frame interpolation where new frames are synthesized. This results in the smoothest motion. It works well going from a higher frame rate to a lower one. After Effects does an excellent job. No plug-in needed.