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Why China fucks USA
  • brianlucebrianluce
    If the free market is so great, how come China, with its centralized control, is kicking the USA's ass?

  • 36 Replies sorted by
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    @zcream "Finally there are a lot of Americans who look at China with envy. If life in China is so wonderful, why are there more Chinese willing to leave to live in the USA and the west, than westerners wanting to move to China ?"

    I think this falls under "the grass is always greener" mentality. People are upset with their own lives and achievements and instead of just admitting they maybe didn't try hard enough to succeed (physically or intellectually)... they blame society, or politicians, or capitalism, or rich people, ect. It falls under that "cognitive dissonance" post I made in another thread.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CognitiveDissonanceDiagram.jpg
  • stoneystoney
    +1. Profit driven globalization

    Look at how the Roman Empire faded away. They had a system that made them rich, but the same system made them fail, too.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    >Though Vitaliy may not like the comparison, isn't this a Stalin-lite form of govt

    Please, find the rich people in Stalin time USSR :-)
    And I mean reach like some Chiense guys.

    But reading your posts make me laught :-)
    It is some mix of mass media stamps, libertarian fairy tales and personal expirience.

    Unfortunately reality is much different.
    All the progress in manufacturing happened because of mass production, specialization (and this means large corporations). All big corporations have long strategic plans, all have thousands of smaller plans and special departments for this. Most parts are obtained using long contracts and long known partners. Because it is most effective way of doing things. Not because they do not like "free market".
  • stoneystoney
    I think Ron Paul would be a good historian.
  • zcreamzcream
    Dazza. China is a corporatist state in its economy and communist in politics. My political views are libertarian. So I do not support big govt. In China though, workers have absolutely no rights. If you die at work, tough luck. If you get injured or suffer due to the negligence of your bosses. Tough luck!
    By no stretch of the imagination is this capitalism. In the US, lobbyists and major corporates manipulate the system. In China, these forces own the system. If you are a worker in a factory, how can you fight back against an employer that is protected by the govt ? The CCP controls the govt, the judiciary and the legislature.

    Also, take a look at people who got rich in China and are actually Chinese. The vast majority are relatives and friends of powerful bureaucrats and politicians.
    In politics, if you criticize the govt, you get slapped around, tortured and jailed.

    Though Vitaliy may not like the comparison, isn't this a Stalin-lite form of govt ?

    In terms of its economy, the govt makes 5 year plans (just like India, and the old soviet state). The govt decides how banks should lend, and who they should lend to. Local politicians decide who gets a bank loan. The currency is also manipulated. How is this a free market economy ?
    In terms of simulating their economy, the CCP spent more as a % of GDP than the US did after the crisis. Thats the only reason there is growth in China today. Senseless construction!

    If digging a hole in the ground and filling it with concrete makes us all rich, perhaps we should start doing that.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @Dazza
    Nicely written.

    So you going with "Soviet Style Planning" or "More free market than America"? Because at the moment you're trying to have it both ways.


  • DazzaDazza
    I actually think modern day China is more free market capitalist than america, and really only communist in name. Quite different from the soviet science/engineering planned society
  • zcreamzcream
    Chinese property bubble
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_bubble

    There are many articles by John Hussman, Steve Keen and Doug Noland, which explain the crisis keeping in mind the distinction between money and credit.Credit runs at 5-10 times the base money in most countries.Thus, a doubling of base money (what central bankers tried in many countries) was more than offset by a 10% or greater fall in credit.

    There are other economists associated with the Austrian School of Economics that deal with these issues.

    As for the growth in China, the CCP traded away clean air, water and arable land for plastic crap that no one really needs. There a number of press reports on the lack of many environmental standards. Loans are made on the basis on number of people employed and profit is irrelevant.

    I was born in India, and there are as many poor unemployed people in India as in China.There are many factories that no one would tolerate in India, that are built in China. If a factory was to pollute local drinking water, people riot and break things in India. Politicians get replaced. Has anyone EVER ever heard of a mass protest in China (beside T-square) ?

    So far, demand in the West has taken up China's goods. When there is a sustained global downturn, a vicious cycle will start in China. Factories will close, banks will find their loan books destroyed, and a rush OUT of the RMB.

    Finally the biggest China bulls are a bunch of upper class twats in Europe and North America, who really do not understand the problems of soviet-style central planning. Or the excesses that can be hidden by a totalitarian state.

    Finally there are a lot of Americans who look at China with envy. If life in China is so wonderful, why are there more Chinese willing to leave to live in the USA and the west, than westerners wanting to move to China ?

    I do not wish to defend the US govt, as I view Washington as just a new version of the British Empire, but many of the americans over here need to stop thinking of what a bunch of Chinese fan-boys have written, and use some common sense. Americas problems have been caused by their own govt, and can still be fixed. Chinas problems are structural, and will not be fixed until a revolution sweeps the CCP out of power.
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    @brianluce "But for the sake of argument, let's say it is true -- then the question becomes if that's a good thing since a the goal of civilization and culture is reduce our base animal impulses."

    Yep, see now we're getting into philosophy. There is no real answer to what that "goal" of a civilization is... or if there even is one. That's why I was saying it was important to establish a premise before attacking the problems...

    You say the goal is to basically become less animal-istic... I say it's to become more advanced. Neither is right or wrong. They're just different goals that require different methods to reach them.

    The way I see it:
    Socialism puts an emphasis on individual life quality by taxing the overall progress of the collective. Progress will stop, but so will competition.

    Capitalism emphasizes progress of the entire nation by competition of individuals. Progress will happen much faster, but some individuals' life quality may deteriorate.

    Pick your poison. We can't have our cake and eat it. ...yet.

    @zcream "Finally, the only problem with the US was that the govt did not allow the natural process of destruction to run its course. Without the bailouts, many of the larger banks would go bust, and when the dust settles, people can rebuild."

    +1

    I agree with this as well.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    @zcream

    I understand your POV.

    Now let's find facts and numbers backing such view.
  • zcreamzcream
    China is a disaster waiting to happen. There is a housing bubble that dwarfs the US. The banking sector is controlled by the CCP - and there is even less transparency than what you saw in the US.

    Finally, the only problem with the US was that the govt did not allow the natural process of destruction to run its course. Without the bailouts, many of the larger banks would go bust, and when the dust settles, people can rebuild.
    Same mistakes as in Japan.
    China has the same central planning BS that went on in the Soviet union. In the early 80s, everyone thought the soviet would take over the world. In a few years, the empire was bankrupt. Not due to war, but simply due to the inefficiency of a planned state. In the 70s, the profits due to resources exported by the soviet state masked the inefficiency.

    China is more efficient, but the same model.
    And for the US, the cost of the empire is about a trillion a year. And the deficit is about a trillion a year.
    Get rid of the empire and you get rid of the deficit.
    Get rid of the bailouts and let Wall Street destroy itself - most of America's problems go away.

    However, with the collection of imperialist twats in Washington, thats not likely to happen.
  • LPowellLPowell
    @Zincoontrin
    Why US corporate capitalists loathe Ron Paul:


  • brianlucebrianluce
    @bwhitz
    Capitalism/the free-market is the only naturally occurring economic system. All other require human intervention, which usually ends badly due to emotions and subjectivity. Natural is good.
    <<<<<<<<<<br />
    I don't know that it's naturally occurring. Early societies were often collectives. But for the sake of argument, let's say it is true -- then the question becomes if that's a good thing since a the goal of civilization and culture is reduce our base animal impulses.



  • LucasAdamsonLucasAdamson
    "The free-market is good though. Capitalism/the free-market is the only naturally occurring economic system. All other require human intervention, which usually ends badly due to emotions and subjectivity. Natural is good."

    Oh Lord - look all through History. It is a history of the rich and powerful becoming more so, taking and taking, until they are (usually) overthrown, because of necessity.

    The Free Market is nothing of the sort. It is a misnomer for a system in which rich, aggressive countries go around the world exploiting poor countries by effectively stealing their resources. The damage it does to the world as a whole is staggering - of course it is very much in the interests of the US economy, but that's very short sighted, selfish and insular thinking.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    @bwhitz
    @brianluce

    Please calm down.
    We are have different opinions, sometimes very different :-)
    Bunch of guys here from communist lovers to ultra liberal.
    And this adds value.
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    "You get called ignorant when you resort to straw man argumentation and cariacature."

    What!? This is what people were doing to me in the last argument!

    "Here in the USA, opinions aren't just a privilege of the enlightened."

    They really should be. 80% of the population is a bunch of ignorant scared grown-children.

    @Zincoontrin
    " It's about the culture of laziness and mediocrity.

    What does Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy have in common? The lack of love for a well-made job, the envy , the despise of hard-working people. If people here know that you tend to work a lot, they always try to convince you that it's not worth to do it.

    Civil servants here OWN their job for life. They can't be fired. That's the word they use: OWN.

    The best advice a Spanish parent gives to their child: Son, you got to become a civil servant."

    Yes, exactly. People here are afraid of competition... they would rather see the US burn to the ground then "sack-up" and take a risk/work.

    I really wish you would come here to the states... we need more people like you.

    @Zincoontrin "And yes, if I were american, which I'm not, I would vote Ron Paul :)"

    I am! I'm a proud Libertarian! It about time we tried a new administration besides the black and white "democrat vs. republican" crap.

    @brianluce "If the free market is so great, how come China, with its centralized control, is kicking the USA's ass?"

    Well, in short... because we're wasting our money. In many different ways and on many different things. Some we can all agree on. Some of them might offend people. So I'll refrain from saying any.

    The free-market is good though. Capitalism/the free-market is the only naturally occurring economic system. All other require human intervention, which usually ends badly due to emotions and subjectivity. Natural is good. We just need to stop the dumb spending.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @bwhitz

    You get called ignorant when you resort to straw man argumentation and cariacature.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    @Zincoontrin "What really pisses me off is looking at the USA disintegrate into an European style social-democracy, losing the few moral values that still remained and made them the greatest nation in history. And no american in this forum or any other is able to raise their voice and say a thing. Whatever."

    I've tried too... but I just get called "immoral" and "ignorant" for pointing out facts and looking for concrete solutions instead of ignorantly repeating "everyone is equal, rich people/corporations are bad" like a media-blind lemming.

    This liberal "everyone deserves everything" attitude is tearing apart the country from the inside out...

    People are afraid to set standards and social morals anymore out of fear of not measuring up to them themselves... it completely selfish. Yet, it's cleverly re-wrapped and packaged as "humanitarian" by the media and general population. Nobody has any balls anymore. Nobody wants to work. And nobody wants to innovate (out of fear of failing).
  • LPowellLPowell
    @Zincoontrin - "It's about the culture of laziness and mediocrity."

    Good preparation for immigrating to the USA, I doubt you'll experience much culture shock.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @Zincoontrin
    I'm tired of read stupid things about economy in the internet and talking to people in real life that don't have a clue about it but, somehow, they feel entitled to give their ignorant opinion.>>>>>>>>

    If you're so hot and milked up to come to the USA, better get used to the fact that there are a lot of ignorant opinions, and no one, repeat no one, questions the right to voice it. Here in the USA, opinions aren't just a privilege of the enlightened. Come to think of it, based on your comments so far, you'll fit right in.

  • ZincoontrinZincoontrin
    I even have my introduction letter and CV ready to send to a few California companies. That's why in the last two years or so I have been getting ready to make the jump.

    I love freedom more than any other value. In Spain, the state presence is suffocating. I hate this country and specially, its culture. Socialist Spain has a 21% unemployment rate, for example.

    It's about the culture of laziness and mediocrity.

    What does Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy have in common? The lack of love for a well-made job, the envy , the despise of hard-working people. If people here know that you tend to work a lot, they always try to convince you that it's not worth to do it.

    Civil servants here OWN their job for life. They can't be fired. That's the word they use: OWN.

    The best advice a Spanish parent gives to their child: Son, you got to become a civil servant.

    Go figure.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    @Zincoontrin

    >if I were american, which I'm not

    In this case I do not understand so much love and deep understanding of US politics :-)
    CIA agent on the mission? :-)
  • mrbillmrbill
    What an astonishingly offensive post
  • ZincoontrinZincoontrin
    And yes, if I were american, which I'm not, I would vote Ron Paul :)
  • LPowellLPowell
    @Vitaliy_Kiselev - "If you remove banks, services, inflated house prices..."

    That would be a good start on fixing the problem.
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