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Expose in the Zone - getting the best image for grading.
  • 146 Replies sorted by
  • hedroxhedrox

    @Gabel @shian thank you guys, checked all the links and I think I understand now what´s going on . My lazyness would rather want to use the waveform monitor.. but looking at the cheapest HD WFM field monitor ( tv logic wfm ) I gues I have no chance but to buy a lightmeter and start to use it and love it :)

  • johnnymjohnnym

    Has anyone ever used filters (like those from Tiffen) to reduce contrast while shooting? Does it improve the image for grading afterwards ?

  • GabelGabel

    @hedrox: Great idea! Light meters are also great, because no matter what camera you're using you can always expose well. If you often rent a WFM monitor, that's great, but what happens on the day where you lack one? A meter you can always bring and everything from film to all kinds of digital will be true.

  • shianshian

    @hedrox you won't be disappointed. It may seem like a nuisance, but it will, over time, change the way you look at Cinematography. Whether it is a short or a long span is entirely dependent on how much time you put into it, and how quickly you grasp the concepts. But soon, the mysteries of how to get something to look a certain way will disappear, and you'll laugh when you think to yourself, "I used to look at this, and be baffled. And now it just seems so simple, I wish I had learned this sooner."

  • shianshian

    @thoughts2uk unless you are going to disable the sleep mode, and never turn off your camera, stay away from 320, or you'll get bit by the ISO bug. I'd leave it at 400 or 200

  • thougts2ukthougts2uk

    @shian thanks for the tip. would the noise / film grain be better at 200 or 400 than say 160 or 320? i can turn the auto power off but you are right the camera will mostly be off between setups.

    So in your experience using 200 400 and 800 turning camera off and on is ok and doesn`t introduce unwanted noise?

    I spoke to my gaffee about implementing a 4:1 ratio trying to expose the scene within + and - 2stops around the correct face exposure 18% gray. should be ok. though one scene is outside at night with camp fire so need to throw more light on the house in the background to bring up the shadows. Any advice on how to best shoot this scene. rather than night how about around dusk?

    thanks in advance

  • shianshian

    @johnnym not yet, but I'm doing a test here soon in which I will. Mostly I want to see what works best for reducing sharpness.

  • AdRAdR

    @shian, thanks for the info and the enthusiasm.

    Small correction: you keep saying "4-stop range," but what you're describing is a 5-stop range. It's your Zone V stop, plus and minus two stops. So it's Zones III,IV,V,VI & VII = 5 stops. I'm sure this is what you mean, because elsewhere you talk about a contrast ratio of 16:1. Contrast ratio = 2 to the power of the difference of f-stops, so a 5-stop range would be 2^(5-1) = 2^4 = 16:1

  • GabelGabel

    @AdR: I do believe you're right, as we have -2, -1, 0, +1, +2.

    But again, still, thanks @shian, it's is an amazing tutorial.

  • stoneystoney

    @shian The ISO bug won't happen when using Q.MENU for changing ISO.

    Simply press Q.MENU button. Browse to ISO setting. Use up/down buttons to set the ISO. No more ISO bug. ISO320 is quite nice.

  • shianshian

    @stonebat BUT if the camera goes to sleep and then is awakened - or is turned off and then back on in 320, the ISO bug returns. If the camera is booted whether it be a cold boot or coming out of sleep into any of the top row of ISOs 160, 320, 640, 1250, etc you get a boatload of noise. I only know this cuz it bit me in the ass really bad on a shoot.

    I've just resigned to avoiding them altogether.

  • stoneystoney

    What the... That sucks...

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    @shian So you judge he noise penalty on non "native" ISOs less important than the danger to run into the bug?

  • shianshian

    @Meierhans yes. I like the grain the camera has at most ISO settings from 200-1600. But the one time I tried to shoot 640 (approached the correct way to bypass the bug) for an ultra clean look, it went to sleep, and it didn't occur to me that that might bring the BUG out, until of course I saw the footage, and was furious.

    There are too many things I have to keep track of while shooting, and the ISO bug is just too much of a hassle to add to the list. If you can keep it straight in your head, and make sure to use the work around every time you change batteries, or the camera goes to sleep... by all means.... go for it. I'm perfectly happy to shoot 200, 400, 800 and 1600 and never have to worry about the bug.

  • punditpundit

    @shian You mentioned that manually white balancing a scene increases noise. I find this odd. Why? I nearly always manual white balance using a WhiBal card.

  • shianshian

    @pundit like I stated, I'm the only one reporting this, so far, so it may just be my camera. But do some tests and see if it does it on your cam as well. It warrants further testing. As fas as I know, no one else has looked into it.

    I'd LOVE to be able to do it manually.

  • punditpundit

    @shian Okay I'll do some tests and see what I can determine.

    "I'd LOVE to be able to do it manually"...? - I'm not sure what you mean. What's preventing you?

    Unless of course you're referring to other people whose job it is to make those decisions on a shoot. ;>)

  • shianshian

    duh, the uh... noise bug

  • punditpundit

    @shian Doh! Huh! Yeah! Okay, I didn't realise you had completely abandoned manual white balance altogether because of the noise bug. I haven't seen all your posts so I obviously missed something.

    I wonder if the GH2 could be 'invisibly' applying some noise reduction when using WB presets and yet not applying any NR at all when manually setting the white balance?

    Think of the 'behind the scenes' sharpening that appears to be applied when using Panny lenses even when sharpening is turned to -2 in the menu?

    Anyway more testing required.

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    I believe ISO bug and noise at custom white balance are two different storys (anyhow closely connected). What I do at work when I can run on V-Mount is to simply disable all the energy saving on the cam, so it keeps runningbuntil battery is changed (once or twice a day). When changing battery i always dial in the desired iso again.

  • GabelGabel

    @shian: To get this straight, by that you mean you never white balance by kelvin, or custom white balance using a card (like on a video camera)?

  • shianshian

    I always use the manual setting to dial in the Kelvin number. But when I use the "sample and set" function it adds noise.

  • GabelGabel

    @shian: Ah, then it's fine, I only use kelvin anyway.

  • sam_sticklandsam_stickland

    @AdR It's four stops I think?

    -2 to -1 (III) : 1 stop
-1 to  0 (IV)  : 1 stop
 0 to  1 (V)   : 1 stop
 1 to  2 (VI)  : 1 stop

    It's only 5 stops if you include 2 to 3 (VII), but Shian doesn't, he stops on the edge of it.

  • AdRAdR

    @sam_stickland

    It's 5 stops.

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    (This diagram is from a popular online course in Zone System photography.)

    Zone System is relative exposure system based on full stops, not the range between them. For example, if you meter a grey card at f/2.8, that's Zone V. Zone VII (+2EV) will be f/5.6

    If that fails to convince you, Shian said his contrast ratio was 16:1.

    Contrast ratio = 2^(numberOfStops-1)

    Therefore, since 16=2^4, then 4= (numberOfStops-1), so numberOfStops=5

    Hope that helps.

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