Panasonic AG AF100 / AF101

bannedindv

@danyyyel "How this little 2 bit from 8 to 10 bit make a world of difference?"

Clearly you understand how bit depth works.
It's a HUGE difference in data recorded and visual quality.

Aria

Protection of product lines is an unavoidable issue we have to live with. Unless a company is created that comes in with the express purpose of creating a Hybrid Large Sensor Video Camera at an affordable price. This fictional company wouldn't have to artificially inflate the price of the camera in order to protect other products with a huge mark up. Companies like Pany and Sony, Canon have too much politics internally to be able to make such a camera. The closest anyone came was VG10, but of course it was a bit too underwhelming an effort.

Perhaps now Sony is ready to bump it up with the VG20. I would guess that they addressed the UI, Moire, Aliasing. Bumped up the frame rate to 1080/60p and maybe just maybe they added 24p. Given the market they claim to be aiming which already includes 24p cameras I don't see how they can avoid it any longer. Pany TM900, Canon HF G10 and their own CX700V have 24p and those are consumer cameras, so why not the supposedly consumer VG20?

danyyyel

@bannedindv

Yes and that is where the problem is. Those company's just don't want from my perspective the minimum image quality an enthusiast or a pro would need at $ 5000. I do understand that it might not be implemented in $ 1000 consumer base camera, but in today's world in pro and semi pro market. Today every software etc are using 32 bit floating point and we are still in 8 bit world.

I really hope that the hacked gh2 kick them hard and that more and more people on forums, shows etc. start to question them, " hey how this $ 800 camera is kicking my $ 5000 one that much. You are giving me 24 mbit while they are using 3, 5 times more". Another accident like limited video 2k raw ( time, buffer,) , on the next Canon or Nikon would really make this industry shake.

I don't have one cent of this gripe in the photography world. I see the product, the competition etc. as normal. You do have product segmentation but even with a small aps c camera you can do exceptional photos. You might get a smaller viewfinder, slower auto focus, les rugged body etc... but it is ok. It is progressing at a good rate not like the dinosaur technology we are seeing in the video world. Imagine this video world without the dslr revolution 3 years ago. Everybody would be drooling on the 1/3 inch camera for above $ 5000.

danyyyel

Vitaliy_Kiselev

I really hope that this happen, a bit fed up with those blatant lies and those that undercover of like Gurus with their forums or blog help to propagate those lies. I am a creative (it is not me to call myself an artist) and to see how the art of story telling is that much harped by those company. I mean I am not naive, I do understand that they have to make a profit. But as the hacked gh1 and now gh2 is showing it is really exaggerated the way they are crippling their tech.

As i said in my previous post, I do not have anything of that anger towards the photographic company. Yes, I am a little annoyed by Nikon because they did not update their pro dx range for 4 years. I want to know their full frame line also to decide what to invest in next as a professional photographer. But does my d300 do good to very good photos, yes it does.

danyyyel

@Aria I have hope that they will have addressed the mpire/aliasing issue. But I have no hope for the 24p.

Aria

To me the industry gets shortsighted in how they deliver their video products. They're still stuck on an old paradigm of the past in which they justified the higher price of a video cam over another by removing features even if those features weren't really part of the cost factor of the camera. IMO a 20X lens over a 10X is a legit price differentiator. However, taking away frame rates on a camera that has the same sensor and internal processing is wrong.

The Sony HX9v is a pure product. It's limited by form and not artificially limited to protect another product. The next camera up in the line the HX100v is also fairly priced based in spec. It has a better lens and more buttons. Now the problem with the HD DSLR revolution is that they didn't see it coming. They didn't have time to properly set a policy or product path that fit the new reality. The creative community expanded the use of the HD DSLR beyond what they intended and it completely caught them off guard. The Genie is out of the bottle and they can't put it back, so they came up with what they thought the community wanted, but then put a PREMIUM price on it and unfairly crippled the cams to create pricing differences rather than provide pure functionality and equipment differences that would fairly account for pricing difference like the HX9v and HX100v!!!

AdR

@danyyyel

Big camera companies like Panasonic make their money by charging as much as they can for as long as they can for the best results. Competitors like RED have forced them to improve the offerings and lower the price a little, but they are always holding things back to entice the big buyers to spend the bigger bucks.

You are right that Panny could release a 10-bit, 100Mbps AF200 for a lower price point, but it would kill off their Varicam business at $20k-$30k a pop. So they give prosumer just enough goodness to compete with the current trendy camera -- the 5DmII right now.

This is why I hope some of the GH2 hack trickles over to the AF100. Because there's no way Panasonic is going to amp up the bitrate or shorten the GOP on that camera anytime soon.

Aria

I would have to guess that the AF100 is one of Panasonic's best selling cams right now. That being the case if sales start to slip as I suspect they have after the FS100 has come out and gotten good reviews, then why not make the slight improvements it would take to make the AF100 a bit better and more competitive?

The action right now is with the large Sensor interchangeable lens cams. The AF100 is next up for a refresh IMO. Pany released new fixed lens cams and I doubt they have anything else along those lines, so now the AF100 is the most logical to get some love. My guess is summer or late 2012.

As great as it may seem to sell a few high end cams, there's a much larger market of amateur and independent film makers out there that are the market for the AF100 and they'd sell WAY MORE of these than any of their high end models. This is good for Pany and I don't see how it's a concern if a few of the guys who used to buy the expensive Varicams also buy AF100's. It will more than make up for the slight dip in sales of Varicams by having a hot selling AF100 to a larger and growing market.

FiatLux

We just took possession of the Sony F3, all pimped up with s-log and (on its way) a PIX240 10bit 4:2:2 recorder. Tests we have done are nothing short of breathtaking, with an amazing DR of nearly 14 stops.

AF100 that clips the highlights like any other digicam of yesteryear, with an IQ not far from the GH1.

I am wondering if it is possible, with a hack, to 'liberate' the internal processing of the AF100 and provide a 10 bit log gamma output, similar to Sony's (rapacious and overpriced) approach?

nomad

If anyone needs better recording for the AF100, get the Ninja. The HDMI output is not crippled like on the GH2. I suppose the SDI with the Samurai would give you even more options (haven't tested yet).

But let's look at the market situation:
The sensor of the AF100 is simply not good enough, I'd say. GH2vk is looking better than AF100. Period.

The FS100 has a far better sensor in a box with less quality than the AF100.

But no need for Vitaliy to waste his time on the AF100. It's getting squeezed now between GH2vk and FS100 in the market and it's up to Panasonic to do the next move. And if they move, Sony will probably make the FS100 better (like 10 bit 422 output) or the F3 cheaper…

FiatLux

For me the FS100 is a no go zone. 8 bit, 420, no inbuilt ND filters and a sensor exposed to the elements when changing lenses.
:((
The lack of a ND filter wheel, negates the smaller form factor - just add a matte box....

Sony should include the s-log on every camera.

We have to wait and see what Canon (totally left in the dust for now) comes up with, at the end of the month and on November 3. They have to bring something serious to the market, more so as Sony has announced the F65 (4k, log gamma, RAW, 4:4:4, including the SRS recorder) - available early next year - in the price range of RED EPIC and Alexa.

Brian202020

@nomad
"But let's look at the market situation:
The sensor of the AF100 is simply not good enough, I'd say. GH2vk is looking better than AF100. Period."

Not sure what your experience with the AF100 is, but I own both the Af100 and the GH2. With the right settings the AF100's image is far superior than even the hacked GH2.

danyyyel

@Brian202020 As you have both, I think everyone here would be grateful if you could show us the far superior image you get in terms of resolution and dynamic range you get with the af100.

Brian202020

Because most of my stuff I work on is commercial, I don't have the rights to post. I'll either dig in some old footage or post something new one of these days, it'll probably be later in the week. I should also mention I have yet to test Driftwoods latest I-frame patch, but was thinking about testing it this week. I have a shoot Thursday where the AF100 won't fit where I might use it.

nomad

I have access to both of them too and dare to disagree. I tested the latest by Driftwood.

bwhitz

I just worked on a few things with the AF-100 recently and the GH2 looks like it has a about 2 stops more highlight latitude and 1 stop in the shadows. The edges and detail on the AF-100 look too digital, I think the down-sampaling from a higher megapixel image (GH2) looks much better. Then on top of that, the internal recording is the same crappy 24mb/s block-fest with no shadow detail like the stock GH2 had. Oh yea, and long-GOP motion rendering is not that great for "the film look" as we have been discussing...

It could have been a great camera... Pannaonic just needed to man-up, get with the times, and put a newer gen Lumix sensor and better codec in it. The AF-100 really only applied to the "look at me! My cameras has XLR inputs! I'm a professional!" people... those who were actually concerned with image turned away after the first samples hit the web.

Aria

It would seem to me that working within the AF100's sweet spot, anyone should be able to make a great looking film. I think most of the time there's a tendency to overstate the negatives since the AF100 is supposed to be a "DSLR Killer". I don't look at it like that. The AF100 is far from perfect but it has it's positives for a real work environment that may present conditions where it's needed to have Dedicated buttons, ND filter, XLR and SDI outputs. Plus having low Moire/Aliasing and Rolling Shutter and a clean 4:2:2 output may be desirable for many.

I have yet to see an direct comparison of the best that the AF100 can do and the best of the GH2, so as to really determine the amount of difference we're talking about visually. I have a feeling that the differences are not as great as it is often stated to be.

But again for a working situation where things are happening live or time is limited and you've got to get things happening quickly the AF100 has it's strengths:

(1) Built-in ND’s (a first for a single chip camera)

(2) Time code/external time code (not available in HDSLRs)

(3) XLR audio with manual control, phantom power, headphones, speaker, uncompressed audio recording

(4) Waveform/vectorscope, zebras

(5) False color focus assist

(6) HD-SDI, HDMI and composite video monitoring

(7) Wide variety of lens mounts, allowing for the use of a wide variety of lenses (including PL mount) without modifying the camera

(8) Half the rolling shutter skew of an HDSLR

(9) No aliasing/moire worth noting

(10) The ability to undercrank & overcrank at 1080/60p over 24p or 30p

(11) Extensive menu control of camera parameters (not offered in HDSLRs)

brianluce

Most of the tests I've seen AF100 v. GH2 unhacked give a slight edge to the GH2. If someone has some tests showing the opposite, love to see it. I think even Barry Green has stopped shilling for the AF. Lost cause.

nomad

I think the discussion started comparing sensors. The AF100 has very useful features, but for quite a price compared to the GH2.
Let's compare:
– 1) ND's can be replaced by a var ND, the best one is around 150,- €
– 2) Admitted, ext. TC can't be done with GH2
– 3) Audio features can be replaced with separate recorders like the H2/H4 and synced with DualEyes (less than 500,- €)
– 4) Waveform/vectorscope? Ok, on GH2 we just have histogram
– 5) False color assist? GH2 has enlarger
– 6) True, GH2 has only crappy HDMI (until now?)
- 7) GH2 has the same
- 8) Same for GH2
- 9) Same here
- 10) Only 60i plus de-interlace – less quality, but possible
- 11) Wait and see

Aria

It's Ok to hack together all of the extra items needed to match the AF100 as most DSLR users do, but some just want the simplicity and quality of the AF100's included features and I can understand that. The price difference isn't as great once you start to add in a quality ND and XLR Mic Pres. The built in overcrank/undercrank is a nice touch and having clean HDMI output at 4:2:2 and timecode are important features for many users. AF100 also has dual SDXC slots with relay record for extended recording and programmable dedicated buttons for quicker setting changes. All of those additional things in one package makes it more acceptable at a price that's gonna be about $2,700.00 more than a GH2 after adding some of the gear needed to add some of the features of the AF100 and still the AF100 would have functions that the GH2 won't have. It's just a different tool!!!

LPowell

@Aria - "All of those additional things in one package makes it more acceptable at a price that's gonna be about $2,700.00 more than a GH2"

Yeah, it's all good, it's just too bad the AF100 isn't hackable as well...

Brian202020

http://www.personal-view.com./talks/discussion/1100/ag-af100-vs.-gh2-final-round#Item_1

nomad

Sure, horses for courses! If you are into documentaries with a small crew, the AF100 is a good tool.

But if you are shooting a feature, I'd use separate audio pre-mixing/recording by a specialist anyway (which is easier having TC again).

But why, oh why didn't put Panny the sensor of the Lumix into the AF100?

Aria

I give Pany credit for even putting the AF100 together as quickly as they did. I just don't think they went all the way in on the AF100. It's almost as if they thought they could pull a fast one on dumb DSLR converts or something. As if we wouldn't notice the flaws. The noise levels and the inability to handle highlights. I really don't understand that kind of thinking. It's like didn't you use your own camera before you sent it out? Don't they have some trusted professionals they could give the cams to in order to test them and get real feedback? At $5,000.00 we have every right to expect a little better than they did. It didn't have to be a RED or Alexa, but surely they could've done better.

John_Farragut

I think AF100 is a reasonable deal. Nicely designed, XLR, headphones, overcrank, external recording, and very important ND filter built in (why FS100 doesn't is beyond me). Yes GH2 is good, but AF100 offers total package. FS100 has nice sensor, but total package is less nice. If you compare AF100 with other camcorders it's a good deal for the image you get. If you compare what you get a few years ago, it is mind blowing what you can get today as a filmmaker in this price range.

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