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Greece: Bleak reality
  • As you may know, democracy truly rules in Greece.
    Privatization of most important public companies, constant salary cuts, pension payment cuts.
    Task is simple - sell as much as you could sell and hope that people won't hang you on street lamps.
    All that we see is just small rehearsal to learn and prepare leading nations to same fate.

    "This is not a program to salvage the economy, it's a program for pillage before bankruptcy,"
    said Alexis Tsipras, head of the small opposition Left Coalition.

    It's not just Greece.

    PhD economist Michael Hudson said in 2009:

    •The giant financial institutions have already killed their host - the real American economy
    •Since they realize that the American economy is dead, they are trying to suck as much blood out of America as possible while the corpse is still warm
    •Because the American economy is dead, their plan is to soon jump to another host. They will ship all of their money overseas

  • 26 Replies sorted by
  • hot money works like a waterfall. money flows from lower yield to higher yield. yen carry trade. dollar carry trade. americans do. asians do. europeans do. lending to developing countries who must raise interest rate to tame inflation. suddenly once a poor country is flooding rapidly with so much hot money. instead of strenthening foundation of their economy and improving living standard of average Joes and fixing political/social/educational problems, corruption creeps into the core of their system. pouring money into easy investment vehicles like mbs and stock market. plus credit market boom, spending binge, low saving. very typical to go for high leverage risky business model for highly export driven fast growing economy. when the hot money leaves, the country falls hard. IMF is called and they take away everything worth from the country... starting with gold from banks.
  • Funny thing is that each small increment in progress seems right thing to do at the moment. i.e. Whatever driving economy growing eventually becomes a cause of economy collapse. It's like our digestive system. The digestive system made us grow, but eventually byproducts of the digestion will wear us down.
  • @stonebat
    I think that you are too hard. :-)
    You got all known negatives and combined them into one.
    IMF is not some unique institute, and not awful only.
    Most of the Greece help comes from other sources, but this not makes it much better :-)
  • >The digestive system make us grow, but eventually byproducts of the digestion eventually wear us down.

    As far as I know it is one of the theories. But I do not agree with it.
  • If life is fair, those eating a lot would die faster, right?

    Tyrell (from Blade Runner): The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very very brightly, Roy. Look at you. You're the prodigal son. You're quite a prize!
  • I'm using "fat" as a metaphor.

    BTW some people are fat due to genetics. Also high carb low nutrient foods r quiet addictive. e.g. Pepsi, french fries, chocolate bars. We are living through interesting time. Less is more. Eat less and live freely more.
  • Most Americans would not say that democracy rules in Greece. It may have been the birthplace of democracy, but these days, the people there expect the State to take care of them, effectively voting themselves right into collectivism. Surprise, surprise...pretty soon, there's not enough people working to support all the benefits being handed out by the State. Greece is a failure of socialism and big government spending, not a failure of democracy.
  • @MrAnthony

    Words of true ultra liberal :-)
    Socialism and social structure is to blame, I see.
    Too few workers, too ineffective.
    Can you, please back up your opinion by facts, like comparing Greece and US economics structure, crime rates, narcotics spreading, healthcare coverage.
  • @MrAnthony

    Do you know Greece, the people, the history? The territory?
    It 'true that the Greek policy was very "happy" for many years, but Greece has many other bigger problems. There are 10 million people over a vast territory and made ​​up of thousands of islands. They had a disastrous recent history, since the second world war, until the "regime of the colonels."
    Germany, which refuses to give aid to Greece, did not pay the war debts from World War II, and must give to Greece more than Greece would need.
    I am Italian, but I work in Greece, and I know the Greek people. Many times what you read in the newspapers it is written by people who do not even know where Greece.

    >... like comparing Greece and US economics structure, crime rates, narcotics spreading, healthcare coverage

    It is nearly impossible for a USA citizen to understand this facts. In Greece, the crime is almost non-existent, apart from political corruption. You can leave the house, or open the car for days and nobody will touch anything, for example. You can say the same in the U.S.?
    Do not talk about health, we know what Obama had to suffer to make a reform that seems epochal, but it is not at all comparable to those in Europe, including Greece. And do not talk about the Italian one.

    Ok, I'm sorry if I'm hot for this topic. And I'm sorry for my English, also...
  • @willyfan

    This is that I am talking about :-)
    But economic liberalism is quite contagious thing. Simple answers for difficult questions.
  • Here is California:

    Using this standard, the Controller’s analysis found that the recently-vetoed budget committed the State to $89.75 billion in spending, but only provided $87.9 billion in revenues, leaving an imbalance of $1.85 billion.

    The largest problem involved the guaranteed level of education funding under Proposition 98. The June 15 budget underfunded education by more than $1.3 billion. Underfunding is not possible without suspending Proposition 98, which would require a supermajority (2/3) vote of the Legislature.

    The budget also counted on $320 million in hospital fees, $103 million in taxes on managed-care plans, and $300 million in vehicle registration charges. However, the Legislature never passed the bills necessary to collect or spend those funds as part of the State budget.

    Source -
  • the "help" is not people saving - its banking saving -the most people think so in Europe; the cut of doubts and a real good invest plan - beside other many things like corruption fighting and really tax pay for the moneyholders in Greek is the only help for people to get chance for longgoing income, not saving plans - difficult, because plans of private´s and government´s bureaus are not trustable, they must hang too, earlier in Greek there were some stoning-events, i know it from visits in Greek: young people are well educated, but cannot do effective things, they shake cold coffee in the bar for the visitors, also here in Germany: greek restaurants are full with greek high-schooled educated servants, i´m sad of this.
  • Ha! California is just like Greece--overspending by the government for social services.

    And no, it's not socialism and social structure that's to blame. It's overspending--spending money without income that is to blame. They have to cut their debt. The Greeks are perfectly nice people and I loved visiting there (other than the guys who kept trying to steer me to certain bars with overpriced liquor and prostitutes). But a government shouldn't be spending money it has no way to repay. Whether that's California, Greece, or the U.S., it doesn't matter. Other countries have plenty of social services, but they also have tax structures to support it.
  • >Other countries have plenty of social services, but they also have tax structures to support it.

    As far as I remember most of the richest countries look similar to Greece, just few years ago.
  • What about Sweden ? Maybe problem is not a system but people ? Morality ?Maybe it is attitude to the world around us?Maybe it is the differences in thinking about other people: fuck them cause I'm better than them or help them because I am better than myself in the past? Maybe the question is what you got at home? From parents?
  • >As far as I remember most of the richest countries look similar to Greece, just few years ago.

    yes, not at all - but always ongoing political fight - of course, historical events are very relevant for this, social structure is main of people´s power and influence, get nothing for no fight, thats real.
  • Greece has had the Nazi occupation in World War II. Immediately after, he had a civil war that has caused economic damage of more than 20 years.
    Then, he had periods of growth from 1950 until the coup d'etat of the colonels dictatorship, (supported by the U.S.) in 1967.
    The absurdity of this economic policy regime has led to another military coup in 1973.
    In all this time, there have been problems of relations with Turkey, and dozens and dozens of earthquakes that have repeatedly destroyed many areas.
    What should be the story of a troubled country because you might think that it is not a sin if they need help?
  • One of the theories is that actual fight is for Greece fleet and Greece shipyards.
    As far as I remember trade fleet is largest in the world.
  • >One of the theories is that actual fight is for Greece fleet...
    I do not know and I ask : Is the Greek fleet, by chance, is not private?
  • @ Mihuel: Sweden was the first country that came to my mind as well.
  • That is a great video. It talks about the debt, how that debt came about, the problems with the tax structure and the Eurozone. It even discusses how the only time Greece hasn't borrowed was during the Nazi occupation. Solutions to the problems will not be easy.
  • >That is a great video.

    Indeed. It contains many oversimplifications, and only one pov, but otherall it is quite good.

  • Here is state of free and democratic Latvia

    Born in 1980 "under occupation" - 35 534
    Born in 1989 "under occupation" - 42 135
    Born in 2010 "full freedom" - 19 236
    During the years of independence 700 000 of population completely vanished.
    As well as all major manufacturing plants.
    Population paid 2,5% of their income under "bloody occupation regime" for all home services (electricity, water, etc).
    New generations are completely sure that this is some fairy tale as such numbers are impossible in their minds.
    Free and democratic clercs now consume 26,3% of GDP, "KGB agents" that ruled this country for years could only dream of such a life.