Personal View site logo
Make sure to join PV on Telegram or Facebook! Perfect to keep up with community on your smartphone.
Please, support PV!
It allows to keep PV going, with more focus towards AI, but keeping be one of the few truly independent places.
Part 3, Revenge of the Great Camera Shootout
  • Now that you've probably seen part 3 - any comments?

    To me it was the most interesting part (except for the boring interviews, of course), as it finally allowed to really see the technical camera differences. And still, the GH2 was IMHO pretty good for its low price point, especially in the "wall shot".

    BTW: At 00h:27m:44s, "Nancy Schreiber" looks kind of ... unexpected. ;-)

  • 32 Replies sorted by
  • Yeah, I noticed the goof on the "Nancy Schreiber" titling as well. Guess Zucuto was in too eager to get this out to us :)

    As far as the empirical test, I'm a little disappointed with the GH2. Resolution, aliasing and moire wise, it's always better than the 7D (and most all EOS DSLRs), but it looks like it consistently gets smoked in the dynamic range department.

    Then all the other progressively more expensive cameras were not surprisingly progressively better in the highlight and shadows department. I don't think anyone was surprised...

    Oh well, I still hang my hat on the fact that when the time and effort is put into learning how to work within the limitations of the GH2 (or any camera) one can get really amazing imagery (especially on the GH2).

    And of course, the point that has been beaten over everyone's head that it's the story that matters above all else, should also give us all some faith :)

    -will

  • ok. I'm selling my gh2 for an Alexa.

  • Part 2 has shown us how important professional lighting is. If you are into fiction, it's much more important than DR. For documentary, I'd hope for more adjustments in picture profiles in the GH3, the sensor has more DR than the current profiles can squeeze into 8 bit.

  • If you are into fiction, it's much more important than DR.

    True. DP's spend a lot of time reducing ratios. DR is great for nature shooters though, that age old dilema of exposing for the sky or ground.

  • This I think goes to show the problem with our beloved GH2. A camera like the Alexa, F65 or Epic can work almost everywhere, doing more or less everything. The thing with the GH2 is that when handled in optimal conditions and by a good person, it looks amazing. It works best if you treat it sort of like older film stocks (before our HUGE dynamic range stocks from today) where you had to get a properly exposed negative and it would look great. It's the same thing here, as long as you work it well, bringing down highlights and shadows up to a good range, you will have an amazing picture. This test was good to show what the camera could handle, the last one showed what the people can make with that camera in the right hands. It's more challenging, but when done right, well then it's up there with the big boys.

  • For those that are doubting GH2's DR:

    If anything, it shows that one has to know how to grade for a specific camera.

  • @P4INKiller: Take note that it does show that the GH2 can recover a lot of lowlight, it isn't too great at handling highlights. And best results is still to light correctly.

  • @Gabel Hence why you expose with highlights in mind.

  • I did this test here http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/1795/dynamic-range-test-between-gh2-and-7d/p1 between the gh2 and 7d with flat profiles. My conclusion would be that the hacked gh2 is on par with the 7d because the hack preserve a lot of the details in the shadows that can be recovered. In the last test they said that they specifically did not raise the shadows so that the gh2 in the worst condition.

    From what I read is that camera like the Alexa best ISO is 800 because they are in fact underexposing, so the middle gray changes so that you have more information/graduation in the highlight than in the shadows. I am in no case saying that the gh2 has the DR of the Alexa, but it could have fared a little better.

  • Here's an interesting critique of the whole process. Essentially, he is saying that if you have complete lighting control, then of course you can get good results, but that in the real world, the budget doesn't always allow that. I'm not sure I agree.

    http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/cameras_why_zacutos_latest_camera_test_may_have_screwed_us_all/

  • For us, guys who shoot no budget films, docs and weddings, it is cheaper to light properly then to get Alexa :-) For big project it is exactly in reverse, as they have too big teams and too much time related expenses.

  • At 800 ISO the Alexa's DR is symmetrical, i.e. the same number of stops over and under middle gray.

  • I spent a lot of time cringing at the GH2's highlight response. I knew it was bad... just not THAT bad.

    @ahbleza That article makes me feel 2 different things:

    A). If like the guy who wrote it, I had never shot on a GH2, I would feel the same way. He makes several salient points. Having to account for the highlight response and the DR does eat time, and changes the process quite a bit from what many of my colleagues are used to with film and high end digital.

    B). Like @Gabel said, shooting on the GH2 is much like shooting with old Ektachrome film which had 5.6 stops of DR. If you shoot accordingly, and take the poor highlight response into account, you can get fantastic results. http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/78982#Comment_78982 It just requires, knowledge, forethought, planning, and a little extra time.

    I'd rather have an Alexa, so I didn't have to be so meticulous, and could focus more on painting the scene, and less on making sure I control the DR.

    But the main point he makes is that producers NEED to be aware that the GH2 is not magic. It has limitations that need to be taken into account. It is not a "shoot everything in available light and it'll look fantastic" cam.

    Finally the F65, to me, looks video-y. I'm actually very impressed with the F3 and the C300 - but still not particularly pleased with their price point vs. the GH2.

  • These are shitty tests. A real world test is shoot a real, edited scene with sound, grading, and you can tell how they cut together. A scene of two people going from a car day-ext, to an interior hallway.

  • I agree with Art Adams in his ProVideo Coalition article - the three-part Zacuto trilogy was like watching Inside the Actors' Studio do a mini-series on indie DP's, highlighted by screen clips of a motley collection of the cameras they work with. In order to put everything from an iPhone to an Alexa on roughly equal footing, a small army of lighting technicians and post-production artists were contracted to show off the potential of each camera.

    In my view, the one section that showed some useful comparisons was the series of ungraded clips at the start of Part 3. This displayed a sample of the results you can expect from a combination of natural and artificial light sources expertly deployed to make the most of each camera's dynamic range. Examine these shots closely to see how the technical shortcomings of the inexpensive DSLR's (blown highlights and rough shadow details) force you to accommodate their limitations in ways that are unnecessary with high-end cinema cameras.

  • The DR of GH2 is an issue for sure..Like others have said it makes you work harder to get things looking like you want ..I wounder when we will start seeing the next phase of low budget DSLR's or Cameras that have the high DR of Black magic, or will Black magic be the only option at that price for a while ..

  • IMO the BMDCC package is hard to beat. You get a very nice camera and software package that seems to be giving the Indie film maker most of what it wants from a camera at a very good price. It's not as cheap as a GH2 of course, but you get a lot for your money.

    If you're willing to live with and budget for the lighting you'll need then a GH2 is a great low end solution. Every day lighting solutions are getting cheaper and of better quality. The DR limitations seem to be something you can work around from what I can see. No it's not an every situation camera, but who would expect that at the GH2 price point. Everything under $3,000.00 has limitations.

  • @P4INKiller: I will sound elitistic when I say this, but what you do is like @shian says: You light it. While you can pull out information in the highlights, it's still not a "strongpoint" of the GH2s DR. Point still stands: It handles highlights like crap and that means you need to control it. Exposing for highlights is fine for situations where you can't light or for small projects, but as a DP, you can't say: Oh don't worry, we can pull up those shadows in post. What you need to do is to light the GH2 well and control the DR. That means putting ND on windows, adding more fill and taking more time. Cole did an amazing job, but Art Adams (who I did feel was a bit harsh here, but otherwise a fan of) has a good point: Info was hidden. What they really should have stressed even further in Part 2 was just how well lit these cameras were, but that needs to be taken into account. The GH2 is not a "point and shoot" camera, at least not in a professional sense. I friend of mine owns an Epic and we had a shot (I was the operator for the shoot) of environments where we had this AMAZING sky with storm clouds coming in, which was perfectly exposed and so was the ground. It was the camera you could capture it all in. The GH2 can't, no matter how much you pull the shadows.

    So after that rant, what I want to say is this: It is an amazing camera, when handled well, but like the 7Ds problem with moiré, the GH2 has problem with range. It is luckily something that can be controlled and I'll be darned if it hasn't made me a better DP, as I've learnt to really think of how I light.

    Of course, one can get creative with it too! I've invested in Black Pro-Mist filters for this very reason, as they can help you by getting a nice bloom on the highlights. Combining that with completely blowing them out (to white) tends to look pretty good. It's still blown out and no detail, but then you get an effect of it. Look at Kaminski, who does it all the time (and to great effect I might add).

  • Some very good points made by all here. I don't think many of us would have let that 'Window Empirical Test' see the light of day in a film release but it proves you have to work at your lighting and camera settings. And yes, the inherent problems of the GH2 can at least be vastly improved.

  • I just directed three commercials that we shot on the Alexa. It's a beautiful camera and does amazing things in a wide range of shooting conditions. Frankly, the Alexa is truly a bargain at its price. But that price is tens of thousands of dollars more than a GH2, so what kind of idiot expects these cameras to go toe-to-toe? That's whack, yo!

    The hacked GH2 is a remarkable camera. To me, this test says, Look, a $700 can film things so well that it can even be in a comparison with cameras of the Alexa caliber. This camera is like the guy who comes in sixth in the 100m dash behind Usain Bolt. He may not get a medal or the glory, but that's a remarkable field to be racing against--the guy--and the camera is still world class.

    There are a lot of things I can do with my GH2 that we could not have accomplished with the Alexa--like easily fitting into a very small space, going handheld for a long time without injuring the camera op's back, risk a "crash cam" type shot, disappearing into an environment, be affordable enough to make a 1-camera shoot into a 3-camera shoot, etc. Those kinds of things can also be invaluable in production.

  • The next revolution in video/cinema low budget gear will be the HDR video, similar to Magic Lantern HDR, but with different iso in adjacent pictures instead off different iso in adjacent frames. two streams from the same sensor merged in camera into one HDR video file.

  • The hacked GH2 is a remarkable camera. To me, this test says, Look, a $700 can film things so well that it can even be in a comparison with cameras of the Alexa caliber.

    Yep, exactly. The Alexa and GH2 (and most cameras these days) can both produce amazing high-budget looks. The Alexa just has a much wider sweet spot and forgiveness. The GH2's sweet spot is ALLOT smaller in comparison to the "bigger cams"... but once you do hit it... well... go back and see which was the most liked camera in Part 2. :)

    There are a lot of things I can do with my GH2 that we could not have accomplished with the Alexa--like easily fitting into a very small space, going handheld for a long time without injuring the camera op's back, risk a "crash cam" type shot, disappearing into an environment, be affordable enough to make a 1-camera shoot into a 3-camera shoot, etc. Those kinds of things can also be invaluable in production.

    +1

    I was just shooting all day yesterday with my GH2 on a Glidecam 1000. No vest... and no fatigue at all. The shots and rigs you can pull off with a smaller/lighter camera are amazing. Simple things, like tracking a subject while walking, are a breeze on something like the GH2... with a giant behemoth (in comparison) like the Alexa, it turns into a multiple-hour ordeal with steady-cam operators, AC's, and about $10,000 more dollars. The shot-to-cost ratio of the GH2 is amazing!!! The size-to-image ratio is the BIGGEST advantage. If you want to compete, and even exceed, the production value of the big shoots... plan around the advantages! If you're hired to DP a shoot with a DSLR-like cam, don't just sit there and complain to the director and producer about the faults of the camera so they'll rent a "bigger one for you to play with" next time. Highlight the advantages... and light your damn set properly. Good results will fallow.

    I've always said that the Alexa is the camera for 'cinematographers'. The GH2 is for the DIY "Robert Rodriguez" director. I like to do everything myself... so it's a no-brainier for me. Big crews piss me off! :)

  • I've got about two hundred thoughts on this recent Zacuto "experience," spanning everything from love to nausea. Certainly we all recognize that Zacuto and Kessler put a great deal of effort into that project -- and they deserve genuine respect and credit -- and I expect they'll win another regional Emmy.

    But, in the spirit of Steve Weiss's "Critics," -- I'll share one point. Leaving out the forty or so minutes of inspirational plateau -- all it was was a dynamic range test. That's it. A dynamic range test that concluded -- expensive cameras have more dynamic range than cheaper cameras.

    So, leaving out the forty minutes of high line inspirational peak, during which half of the people talked about the importance of the story line -- leaving that out -- the conclusion of this "shootout" was -- expensive cameras have more dynamic range than cheaper cameras.

    My advice to the visionaries building their dreams with their hacked GH2 -- buy lights.

  • @DouglasHorn: Best quote I've seen in this thread. Well summed up!

  • I think one of the biggest things thats being overlooked with all this GH2 talk about the DR is the fact that there are situations where you simply can't control lighting much. You're shooting on a beach, shooting on a sunny day with no lighting control, filming an event with blown out par cans and an actor on stage. Everything isnt' about relighting, and everyone doesn't make films. I feel like all everybody talks about is making films on here, but in reality most people are using their cameras to make money doing corprorate stuff, music videos, events, etc, not narrative filmmaking. The GH2's DR is definitly a limitation in situations, not everything can be fixed just by lighting to a smaller ratio.