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Canon EOS C500 topic
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  • Looks like Canon is set on alienating the DSLR revolution they accidentally created. I understand the need to make money and justify the difference between "pro" and "consumer" gear, but when the difference has nothing to do with component cost and is purely marketing and holding on to antiquated business practices I start to get a little infuriated.

  • @Philldaagony I disagree. The market price is rarely a direct reflection of component cost. Take perfume for example - one of the highest mark-up items out there.

    Conversely, I know from personal experience that one of the highest priced speaker driver companies in the world also has one of the lowest percentage mark-ups.

    Unless we want to build our own cameras, there are different questions that seem appropriate.

    1) Does the product the company offers do what I want?

    2) Does the product the company offers improve upon what I already have?

    3) Is the company's pricing policy in line with other products offering the same capabilities?

    While 1 and 2 are highly personal, 3 is one that can be researched fairly easily. There are only a handful of 4K cameras with slow-mo that have been announced, let alone released. One of the competitors has not even finalized a 4K recording method. Some of the offerings mentioned also do not offer a "RAW" recording format.

    The 4K DSLR is projected to be priced higher than EOS-1D X (which is not yet widely available) but less than a typical Scarlet package.

    Why are people infuriated?

  • @thepalalias Comparing speaker driver companies and Digital Camera technologies is not a 1:1 comparison. Speaker drivers are an extremely mature technology. Digital cinema is new, and the price of semiconductors and CMOS/CCD/whatever sensor tech they use is always going down. However, what I genuinely despise is using the same tech in multiple devices and handicapping one product over the next via firmware, or some other "manufactured" difference (Sony FS100, F3, Any of the RED Cameras). It's simply a way for those producing goods to justify the stratification of the market place.

    I do agree with your list of appropriate questions. The third one in particular. Someone will introduce a product that will make all other Camera companies drop their jaws in horror. It'll deliver the quality of cameras 5-10 times its price and a similar feature set. The technical part of the revolution is already here, it's just a matter of having a company have the gusto to price it accordingly. I'd love to see the component price breakdown of an Alexa vs Mark III vs GH2 vs Any other camera. I think a lot of people would be surprised how cheap the components are. The question then is, how much is R&D worth in the equation.

    I'm not mad I can't afford certain "tools" because at the end of the day it's the talent of the film maker that really matters. But, that doesn't change the fact corporate business practices in the cinema world don't match the creativity of the people that support their existence.

  • Impressed with the C500 and the 12bit EOS RAW and the 120fps, but the Cinema 1D I think will be a miss. Too much money for what it is. I'd rather spend $1000 less and get the FS700, or $7000 less and get the D800, or spend $2000 more and get both the FS700 and the D800.

  • @Brian202020 So many choices! But, the C500 if the rumored specs are legit could bring down the price of the Alexa and Epic, I'll give Canon that much. But, the Cine DSLR has to be price more aggressively in order to appeal to the market that's most ready to take advantage of its full-frame capabilities.

  • @Phildaagony I do not think there is anything wrong with them choosing to do that sort of market segmentation. I do not like it as a consumer, but I understand it as a businessperson. I think we have all heard stories of people being provided with close to the exact same product at two different price points and then seeming more satisfied with the more expensive ones. It really is sad to see people getting irate about software they get for free from the open-source community sometimes, for instance.

    The manufacturers should not be expected to price in the consumers interest, but in their own. That's why the competition from the GH2 is so important in helping keep pressure on other still camera manufacturers regarding the pricing and capability of the video side. And it is also important that the RED Epic has been there to keep the Arri Alexa from seeming like a better deal than it really is. That does not mean I think either the Epic or Alexa are over-priced, but I think that the competition is very good for consumers and keeps them asking why each one does not have certain facets of their competitor.

    The C500 looks set to help apply some pressure in its market segment and I am happy about that.

    EDIT: I started typing that before your last post. :)

  • @thepalalias Haha I know the feeling! True as businesses it may be in their best interest to do so, but if it hurts sales, and prevents them from tapping into a market ready to spend money, that hurts them as well. As consumers we can post all we want in forums, but at the end of the day we speak with our wallets. If someone comes in at a price point and offers all the features we've been lamenting about for so long, and someone makes a gazillion dollars off it, expect someone else to follow suit. But, then the market becomes over-saturated and no one makes money (HDTVS).

  • @Philldaagony Exactly. I do not think that 4K, super-slow-mo and RAW will sell cameras to the mass market the way that HD support did, so I can understand the companies wanting to keep those products priced for a smaller market. At the same time, as a somewhat smaller market segment, I am myself watching very intently for the features to trickle into a more affordable range.

    Over the last decade and a half, we saw the same thing happen in computer music and digital video. The ability to produce content that could (under the best of circumstances) be mistaken for top-budget material started to appear at a fraction of the price point. For audio it went from $50,000 to >$1,000 dollars for samplers. For cameras it went from "rental only for hundreds of dollars a day" to "own for hundreds of dollars".

    I am certainly excited about the next developments but it is hard to be too impatient given how much has happened in the last decade and a half. :)

  • The cameras sound great. But, The industry always finds a way to self correct. It wasn't intended to give us the quality we got from the DSLR revolution at such low price points. Now that they realize just how good some of their cameras were, they've found a way to fix the problem of accessible high quality product that could kill off their pro divisions. It's pretty much over now. They have products we want put up on the top shelf just out of reach for most. Rather than bring everything you want all the way down to the lower shelves as some may have imagined.

    It's OK. We had a nice ride for a while there, but everything is back to normal now. No RED 4K for every man. No 5DMk3 without crippling it's image. Our only hope now is that we can get Nikon or Pany to not self correct their product lines. Nikon seems like the likely peoples champion due to now having a pro video dept. Pany still has the GH3 and perhaps that will not be crippled but I doubt it.

  • @Aria I respectfully disagree with the self-correction. If it had really gone "back to normal" then we would have seen the functionality removed from other newer products, not just developed less aggressively than we would like. We would also have seen DSLR use in films turn out to be a fad, and people would have stopped shooting with them. Nor would we see increased video features have become more important to Nikon than they were with the D90.

    No, the fact is that a new product application was created and remains and our desires for how to develop that just are not consistent with what most businesses have in mind. Everything is getting better in the sense that the technology we have available at the same price point has improved continually since this ball of wax first got rolling. But we will always want more, and right now more also costs more. But the days of a premium just for it being "pro" seem to be largely over.

    Remember right before the DSLR video revolution hit, when the HV20/HV30 changed low-budget filmmaking for a lot of less affluent people? The price difference between that and the next model up (which added functionality and tweakability but little in the way of resolution or frame rate) was pretty big. Now for that same sort of price difference you get a much higher resolution and frame rate. I see no "self-correction" in play, I just see our increasing desires .

    Most of the things that really were over-priced are not anymore. Just look at how much less the high end Sony cameras are going to cost now vs a few years ago. :)

  • Just to clarify: I would love to be able to grab a $4k camera with RAW recording and super-slow-mo and 4k video, and interchangable lenses. So I will be very happy whenever it gets there. It just seems like it should rightfully be at least another year or two away at a minimum.

  • 4K? I'm okay with 1080p (if it's TRUE 1080) for now. Higher FPS? 60 does me just fine most of the time. RAW? It'd be nice but I don't "need" it...

    but for the love of all that is holy, could someone please give us at least 4:2:2 in an affordable camera?!?!

  • Canon EOS C500 Firmware Updates

    • ACESproxy output from the camera's 3G-SDI monitor terminal - Allows filmmakers to grade their footage (which is being recorded in RAW) immediately on-set using a compatible ACES monitor with ASC CDL. This provides an accurate representation of how the footage will look after being color graded in the DI suite when a project uses ACES.
    • Support for DCI-P3+ color gamut (Cinema Raw Development) - DCI-P3 is the standard color gamut for digital movie projection. DCI-P3+ is an expanded gamut. This color space shares the same white point as DCI-P3, but encompasses a much greater range of color. By exceeding the DCI-P3 standard, the Canon EOS C500 camera offers filmmakers, in particular the cinematographer, an increase in saturated colors which can be faithfully reproduced, as well as a more accurate representation of the original subject color.
    • Canon Proprietary Cinema Gamut - Cinema Gamut is the widest color space currently available for the EOS C500 Cinema Camera. Canon's Cinema Gamut is wider than both Rec. 709 and DCI-P3+, allowing end users to faithfully record highly saturated color while retaining fine variations of both hue and saturation.
    • Canon Log LUT (look-up-table) available over the 3G-SDI monitor terminal - When the camera is recording in Canon Log format, the image that is simultaneously outputted over the 3G-SDI terminal to an external monitor can be viewed in its original color space without the apparent lack of contrast and color saturation, resultant of the Log format.
    • 4096 x 1080 RAW resolution - In this new shooting mode, in full RAW recording, the vertically cropped center of the EOS C500 camera's Super 35mm CMOS sensor can now record in 4096 x 1080 native resolution, up to 120fps.
    • Peripheral lens correction feature - This maintains even illumination from corner to corner of the image and virtually eliminates vignetting across the image. There are 14 Canon EF-Series photographic lenses that benefit from this feature including the EF300mm f/2.8L IS II USM, EF400mm f/2.8L IS II USM, the EF500mm and EF600mm f/4L IS II USM. The seven Canon CN-E Series Cinema Lensesi that benefit from this feature include the CN-E15.5-47mm and CN-E30-105mm T2.8L S compact Cinema zooms, the CN-E14mm T3.1L F, the CN-E24mm T1.5L F, the CN-E 50mm T1.3L F, the CN-E85mm T1.3L F, and the CN-E135mm T2.2L F Cinema prime lenses.
    • ISO increased up to 80,000 - This provides the EOS C500, EOS C300 and EOS C100 cameras with greater light sensitivity than ever before. Great for documentaries and other forms of reality production, this ISO increase can help capture shots that may have been previously impossible to capture.
    • Ability to shift the magnification location in the viewfinder - Allows users to manually move the magnification view area to one of 25 different locations using the joystick on the camera. With this feature, the camera operator can easily check focus even on subjects that are not located directly in the center of the frame.
    • Record button lock - The lock setting on the Key Lock now makes it possible to lock all operations, including the RECORD button, to prevent accidental operation during takes.
    • Multi-person log-in for the Canon Wi-Fi® remote application - This allows two users to log-in to a single camera, allowing for camera operation/control with one log-in and metadata to be inputted by the second log-in simultaneously. This is essential when time is critical and production tasks need to be completed immediately.
    • Ability to assign ISO and iris adjustments to the control dial (or, on the EOS C300 camera, the dial on the removable side grip handle) - This gives operators the option to allocate whichever setting they prefer to either dial, allowing for specific changes at a moment's notice
  • Definitely some useful updates to the C series - especially some of the usability ones.

    I'll be curious to see some ISO 80,000 footage, but where I really wanted to see that was to make the video ISO match the stills ISO on the 1D C and 1D X.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev That was the film Canon showed at a 4K theater on Sunset last year. It looked even better sitting in the front row - I really didn't notice any artifacts the whole time.

  • Firmware update

    1. When using the Magnify focus assist function, the ability to move the magnified viewing area around the LCD has been added.
    2. Maximum ISO setting has been increased to ISO 80,000.
    3. Cinema Gamut mode and DCI-P3+ mode have been added to provide expanded color gamut options in RAW capture.
    4. 4096×1080-pixel RAW format resolution has been added.
    5. A Key Lock menu setting has been added which now makes it possible to lock all operations, including the START/STOP button.
    6. Using the optional Canon WFT-E6 Wireless File Transmitter, the camera’s remote-control application allows up to two users to access the same unit via a Wi-Fi® link providing simultaneous and independent control of camera operation and metadata input.
    7. Canon Log LUT support has been made possible for HD/SD SDI terminal output.
    8. ACESproxy output from monitor terminal has been added.
    9. [ND]/[ND-] have been added as functions that can be allocated to any assignable button.
    10. Ability to assign the two control dials (body and grip) to operate either Iris or ISO sensitivity independently has been added.
    11. Peripheral Illumination Correction Data has been added for seven (7) Canon Cinema lenses (EF mount) and eleven (11) Canon EF Lenses.
  • This SNL skit was not funny at all.