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Smart Rendering GH4 4K on Windows?
  • NickHopeNickHope

    Before I start archiving the best parts of my footage in MagicYUV lossless .avi format at a bitrate 18x bigger than the original, I am wondering if anyone has found a way to reliably smart render (no recompression) 4K UHD MP4 footage from the Panasonic GH4. My typical nature footage features a lot of unwanted head and tail. Really I just want to split the files on the PC, not in-camera. I don't care if it's forced to i-Frames or if the first and final GOPs don't render well.

    The "main" NLEs won't do it. I tried TMPGEnc Smart Renderer and that didn't work. I expect it's beyond VideoReDo and Womble.

    I have heard that Cyberlink PowerDirector tries it but there are glitches in the result from version 12 (reported at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/161-camcorders/1533217-cambridge-uk-4k.html ). Unfortunately the version 13 trial version doesn't support 4k so it would mean spending $80 on the program to test it.

    I also notice that Corel VideoStudio Pro X7 features "4k smart rendering" and there is a fully-functional trial version but it's 800MB.

  • 32 Replies sorted by
  • NickHopeNickHope

    I just tested TMPGEnc Smart Render 5.0.7.9, the latest version. Unlike my previous test, it does now "mostly" smart render GH4 footage. However with my UHD 30p MP4 clips it re-renders the first 64 to 74 frames (more than 2 seconds) and the final 2 to 12 frames. It does make a good job of the re-render though, and the quality of the re-rendered part can be set. The main body of the clips is identical to the original, as is the audio. And when the rendered clips are decoded in Vegas Pro there are no repeat or glitched frames that need trimming, as happens with FFmpeg.

    However the bigger problem for me is that the batch list format (*.tmsr5b) is a closed/compiled/encrypted format so it's impossible to get a batch list into it in text format from another NLE. This makes it useless for my purposes.

    My solution using FFmpeg from Vegas Pro has been moved to https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/smart-rendering-in-a-batch-with-ffmpeg-gh4-etc--101381/ since Magix bought the Vegas.

  • NickHopeNickHope

    @G3550D PHOTOfunSTUDIO 9.5PE that came with my 2014 GH4 also smart renders. The problem is that it won't do a batch or accept input from an external program or edit list.

  • notronsnotrons

    Have a look at Slicer - http://hdcinematics.com/Slicer-UserGuide.html

  • G3550DG3550D

    I have no technical knowledge on these matters but I have noticed that that the version of PHOTOfunSTUDIO that comes with the G7 (Version 9.7PE) is far quicker at trimming clips than previous versions I have used. Does that suggest it is smart-rendering the clips?

  • NickHopeNickHope

    TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 5 preview trial version is out. http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tmsr5.html Worth a try. Would be disappointing if it still doesn't work with GH4 UHD/4K footage.

  • NickHopeNickHope

    A couple of updates on this....

    I have worked with the author of Vegasaur to improve its Smart Trim functionality, which uses FFmpeg under the hood. If you use Sony Vegas Pro then Vegasaur 2.4 now provides an effective solution to smart rendering GH4 footage, but note that there are still issues with the ends of the files that need to be dealt with. See my latest posts on http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/showmessage.asp?messageid=932826 for full details.

    Vegasaur: http://vegasaur.com/Vegasaur

    Also, I tested the current trial version of VideoReDo with some GH4 MP4 UHD 30p footage. In my first test, it crashed during the render. I did then manage to trim and render 2 files, but they do not decode properly in Vegas Pro 13. Much of them appear as green thumbnails on the timeline, they don't play back properly, and the end is not quantized. So I really don't have much faith in VideoReDo for doing this. I'm also doubtful that there any way to get an edit list into it from an NLE.

  • NickHopeNickHope

    So I completed a workflow that enables FFmpeg batch smart-rendering of a custom list of files and edit-point generated in Sony Vegas Pro. It's possible that the workflow could be adapted to work with a standard EDL exported by other NLEs too. See http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/showmessage.asp?messageid=932826

  • NickHopeNickHope

    I have had a little success with ffmpeg using a command line like this:

    ffmpeg -ss 00:00:02.603 -i E:\input.MP4 -an -c copy -to 00:00:17.384 E:\output.mp4

    The -an is telling it to ignore audio. You can include audio but PCM doesn't seem possible.

    In Vegas Pro the output file decodes frame-accurately at the beginning but extended at the end with a reverse frame glitch. In Premiere Pro the decodes extended beyond the cut at both ends but without glitches. Presumably it's showing whole GOPs, starting and ending on I-Frames.

    Nevertheless it's usable for archiving, as long as you remember to trim the file end(s) when you bring it back.

    Now the key is to get a script written to enable ffmpeg to render a batch from an EDL/batch list output by an NLE. Beyond me I'm afraid. Someone who knew what they were doing could probably start with the script on this page and expand/modify it: http://grapsus.net/blog/post/A-script-for-splitting-videos-using-ffmpeg

  • NickHopeNickHope

    Thank you Ezzelin. Avidemux offers some hope, although I'm having a few issues with it. See my post at http://avidemux.org/smif/index.php/topic,16487.0.html I'll report back.

  • targoszstock+targoszstock

    You're welcome NickHope. I have a very powerful machine as well and AVS Video ReMaker works well for me. Unfortunately Panasonic's PHOTOfunSTUDIO crashes upon install.

  • EzzelinEzzelin

    Avidemux can also cut, join, and expert losslessly. I've used it to join and cut mp4 files from my G7. Also tsmuxer can join mts files, but not sure about cutting.

  • NickHopeNickHope

    Thanks targoszstock. I have a very powerful machine, but unfortunately it crashes or hangs before I am able to trim a clip. Also it looks like it can't import an EDL, so there doesn't seem to be any benefit over using Panasonic's PHOTOfunSTUDIO (which is reliable, and retains the metadata).

    The search continues...

  • targoszstock+targoszstock

    This seems to work well with 4K footage, it's free and fully functional for renders up to 5 minutes long http://www.avs4you.com/AVS-Video-ReMaker.aspx

  • NickHopeNickHope

    I am told that ClipExporter for FCPX will smart render GH4 footage. http://www.clipexporter.com/ Having failed to find a Windows solution, I'm actually thinking of getting a Mac just for this. Anyone have any experience of it?

  • sam_rides_a_mtbsam_rides_a_mtb

    Adobe premiere actually has smart rendering built in (and Adobe media encoder) but currently only for xdcam footage though it wraps the files slightly differently. Works blazing fast when I used this feature a few years back. Always been hoping they would add support for other codecs. Maybe just enough people need to request it.

  • NickHopeNickHope

    I just discovered that Panasonic's own PHOTOfunSTUDIO 9.5 PE will smart render by using the command "Edit video" > "Delete Partially". I've just tested it on both .MOV and .MP4 UHD files and it works well. As expected, the ends of the file, up to about half a second long (presumably the parts outside of full GOPs) get re-rendered, but the main body of the file is losslessly rendered.

    Up to now this is the one and only way I have discovered to successfully smart render GH4 4K MP4 files on a computer. Certainly more convenient than doing it in-camera!

    Now if only someone would put that functionality into an NLE or an app that can accept an NLE...

  • NickHopeNickHope

    Thanks natureflixs. MPEG Streamclip on the PC will indeed smart render GH4 4k .MOV footage, but unfortunately it won't open 4K/100M/30p .MP4 clips. Also I couldn't find a way to get an EDL (edit decision list) into it. Trimming hundreds/thousands of clips in it is going to be much more laborious than in a proper NLE.

    So...

    1. Does anyone know of a way to losslessly convert GH4 4K/100M/30p clips between .MP4 container and .MOV container?
    2. Does anyone know of a way to get an EDL into MPEG Streamclip (or a similar program that will losslessly trim .MOV files)?
  • ScubaBobScubaBob

    Thanks @natureflixs !

  • natureflixsnatureflixs

    I use mpeg streamclip to trim my GH4 files without re-encoding them. Just set in and out then hit trim and save as. It is almost instantaneous. Here is a tutorial for a mac but there is also a pc version.

  • ScubaBobScubaBob

    Hmm - I'm surprised they didn't have the issue too. I've own the software and I've tried both MP4 and MOV clips and both cause SmartCutter to crash. I will give it another shot..

  • NickHopeNickHope

    I've given up with Smart Cutter. I've tried various versions and it crashes on both my desktop and laptop Win 8.1. Support didn't have anything to offer other than "It works for us". I did get a trial version running once on my laptop but the rendered files had glitches on them. It's possible that this was due to the overlaying of the word "DEMO" on the footage but I don't think so. (Yeah, I know, why would you produce a demo version of a smart renderer that doesn't smart render by definition because of an overlaid logo?). Also, the EDL upload is only for a single source file. Totally useless if you're uploading and EDL exported from a timeline containing multiple clips. A quick look at this thread on their forum doesn't inspire confidence: http://www.fame-ring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7353

    I think the best hope of smart rendering at this stage may be that Cyberlink iron out the glitches in PowerDirector. I'm not holding my breath. I'll gather myself and submit a support ticket. Maybe some bright spark will come up with something, or TMPGEnc will update their smart renderer.

    So my conclusion is just to archive untrimmed files, warts and all, which sucks. If I have a clip where I want to get rid of more than 60-70% then I may render to Sony XAVC Intra in Vegas Pro for archiving, which is near-lossless, but 2.6x bigger files size than the orginal MP4 footage. It's easier to edit because it's intraframe, but of course you lose your metadata. I can't see the difference from the original MP4 on my monitor, but the scopes show differences.

  • ScubaBobScubaBob

    Thanks Nick for following up with famering - I will add them back to my workflow if they support GH4 files!

  • NickHopeNickHope

    There's always in-camera splitting. I might writing some clips back to SD card and try that if I have some particularly long clips that need a lot of rubbish chopping off.

  • RKMRKM

    @NickHope

    I went to Kenya back in June for 3 weeks and hoped that Adobe Prelude could help me organize things. But there wasn't enough power available to properly use the program. Also the file renaming messed up all my filenames because the creation/modification datetime each clip was different on my main drive and the backup. And the USB3.0 bit of my 2TB hd stopped working so I was forced to accept usb 2.0 speeds. But anyway prelude can render subclips into a near lossless format and might be a solution. The SolveigMM is terrible unstable and has a slow interface. I would like to have a very easy solution here to lossless cut away big chuncks and save loads of space. It doesn't have to be very accurate even 20 second before and after the juicy stuff would save loads of space.

  • NickHopeNickHope

    SolveigMM Video Splitter seems to do it, and the MP4 files play OK in WMP, PowerDirector etc., but they don't decode or play properly in Sony Vegas Pro 13. Much of the video track preview is dark green.

    Had a reply already from FrameRing so I will send them a sample or two.

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