Panasonic AG-AC90 topic and comparison with GH2, video test

tommy

**Some AC90 specs **

1080/60p, 60i, 30p, 24p, 480/60i. [50 Hz model]: 1080/50p, 50i, 25p, 576/50i.
High sensitive BSI 3MOS sensor
F1.5
29.8 mm wide angle / high powered zoom lens (12x)
built in 5 axis hybrid OIS
3.5 inch lcd (touch) 1.150.000 dot resolution • Dual SD Card Slots (support SDXC/SDHC/SD Memory Cards).
2 channel XLR audio inputs (MIC/LINE/+48V selectable). 
Audio CH1/CH2 with individual level controls and input selection.
HDMI output, AV Multi output (D-connector, composite video and audio 2 channel), USB connector. • Remote terminals enable remote operation of iris, focus, zoom, Rec Start/ Stop functions.

Available at:

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-AG-AC90-Full-HD-Handheld-Camcorder/dp/B00AA2P9UE

In all the excitement with the GH3 (some 1200 replies in 5 days here only ) I wanted to start a new discussion, because I feel we (or at least some of us) have to face the reality. Should we buy the GH3 or start filming again with a camera that is made for it ?!

I have the GH2 for 2 years, have 3 different lenses and tried several hacks, I bought the Tascam DR-40 for sound (and other stuff). I needed a rig to hold everything, and now it looks stupid. If you are not doing fiction, (always) filming on a tripod, or in a studio and you also want to be fast and flexible (which is often necessary) it just doesn't work! (for me ;-)

Therefore I am considering a 'normal' video camera again. But which one? Next month the AG-AC90 will be available for only € 1800,= . I got it yesterday to try it out for 1 day. As there is no information (or footage) about the camera, I wanted to do some video comparison.

I compare footage of the AC90 with the GH2 (As we do not have the GH3 yet, but I don't expect it to be a miracle anyway ;-). It was not my intention to make good shots, but to put both cameras in 'hard' circumstances, such as high contrast, back light, movement, moire, rolling shutter effects etc. I did different tests and tried to keep equal settings, same shooting moments and movements, tripod / handheld, slow motion, rack focus / auto focus, daylight / low-light / dark, menu / settings. I only had the camera for a day (without a manual), so I don't know it well. Most images in standard settings were a bit too bright (but this can be adjusted in the camera).

The AC90 has a smaller sensor so less DOF (but in daylight can be achieved with a ND filter.) I didn't have one during testing (but I did use a ND in some shots with the GH2, so that is not a fair comparison). I expected the AC90 to do worse in lowlight but I am actually quite surprised!

The video is definitely not a 'scientific' pixel tweaking test. I know little about how to test GOP, I / P/ B structure, 4:4:2, peaking, dynamic range, AVCHD profiles, etc. But you guys do! @Vitaly_Kiselev @Driftwood @Ralph_B @cbrandin and others ?! I can put some original files online for some deeper analyses. What can you tell about the footage? GOP, I/P/B, etc? Is it hackable (or worth hacking ;-) to give it a bit more Mbs? etc?

I hope to open up the discussion (from the large sensor cameras such as the GH3) and look forward to hear everybody's opinion!

Ps1 Some shots in the end are only with the AC90 because it was too dark for the GH2 (with the 14-140 mm lens)

Ps2 I know YouTube is not good, but I also think it is only showing HD 25P as I rendered it 50P (and the orginal looks better and more smooth)

Ps3 Sorry for the stupid music (without sound was even more boring)

PauloTeixeira

Here's a bunch of random scenes around the Boston Marathon. Would have helped if I was close to the gate. That's what happens when you get their late. At least I was able to get both the men's and women's winners running.

Anyway, those 2 videos that I posted earlier consists of random behind the scenes footage of Black Mass when they were using Revere Beach. 9 months later and we finally get the first trailer of Black Mass. If I have known that 1080p60 streaming would be pro-active, I would have exported in 1080p60 like my marathon footage.

PauloTeixeira

I was just gonna post that here. I didn't realize their was a firmware update until I received an email from Panasonic recently. Apparently I'm one of the late people to get the news. I'll update my AC90 as soon as I can.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

New firmware available at

http://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/content/download/EN/ep2main/soft/upgac90_e.htm

PauloTeixeira

I felt a little embarrassed about posting this here much earlier (Since it's a camera orientated site) since my video settings might have been off in some parts since I was fooling around and I had a lot of crazy pans and shakes. I also decided to keep all the bad shots in since I wanted to get these videos up as quickly as possible so I did very, very little editing. I was sort of doing it for fun and to add more content to my YouTube channel.

I took some videos of the preparations from Tuesday to Friday. These 2 videos in particular are from Thursday and Friday, which were the days they were actually shooting the film. Johnny Depp as well as other actors appears in the video and I also have some shots of them acting. I had to zoom in all the way to get those.

With all that said, what matters is that I got the footage. These are once and a lifetime shots so to speak. If you would like to see the 3 earlier videos, click here: https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...=dd&shelf_id=2

PauloTeixeira

I actually thought about going to every single camera forum and ask if anyone would allow me to borrow their Sony AX100 camcorder for the night. I joked to myself that another option would be to bring a flash light and shine it on the people. I do have my GH2 with f/1.7 lens which I decided not to use and yes, the Sony A7S would have been a good choice. The low light quality of this event would have been awesome with the A7S.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@PauloTeixeira

Next time get Sony A7s :-)

PauloTeixeira

World Naked Bike Ride 2014 - Boston edition

This is part 1. Part 2 is also on my channel but theirs nudity on it so I wont post that here. The link to that video is also in the description underneath this video.

It was impossible to get clear shots at this location becasue of how dark it was. I shot it in 30p with a shutter of 30. Everything else fully automatic. I could have done frame rate of 24 and a shutter of 24 but I figured with me sometimes swinging the camera around, that might not be a good idea. If only this was held during the day!

PauloTeixeira

The AC90 has been updated to AC90A and the good news is that AC90 users can download the firmware update. Their are some extra features such as having more control over the white balance. http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=709006&modelNo=Content06162014051531443&surfModel=Content06162014051531443 http://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/content/download/EN/ep2main/soft/upgac90_e.htm

Anyway, here's a video I did while in Las Vegas attending NAB. Basically me walking around one night on the strip with the AC90. That was a ton of walking and if you ever been their, you'd know how awkward it is to walk around. Many times you have to go through a bunch of hoops just to cross the street and sometimes you have to go though buildings.

inqb8tr

It's still not a proper ND, but it is true that I didn't get what you were trying to say. Thanks for clarifying. That's some weird sh*t going on in there.

tommy

@inqb8tr Sorry that I keep going on with this, but why I wrote the part about the ND filter, is because that it is not just 'aperture', like you might think now (as you are refering to unlimited battery when using a charger.)

I'm not a specialist, but I did research it a bit last year. Last year Barry Green explained me about this step less ND, see below. I thought this was strange as well (like a "little bit ND") , but since I have the camera it sure works nice in practice. Perhaps you knew this already, or perhaps Barry is not correct, but I just wanted to let you know (and other people that might consider the camera)

Barry Green wrote me about ND: The system uses zero ND filtration when the iris is set between f/1.5 to f/2.8. If you "stop down" the lens past f/2.8, the iris doesn't actually change at all. The system adds a little bit of ND filter to make the same exposure as if you'd actually stopped down the iris. It brings in more and more ND until you hit f/6.4 when the iris display reads out f/6.4, it's actually f/2.8 plus all the ND filter the camera can deliver. If you stop the iris down any further, it actually starts closing the iris again.

This has two massive benefits: 1) It delivers seamless exposure changes 2) It keeps the iris in the "sweet spot" for as long as possible, avoiding the crippling issues of diffraction. If they'd gone with true iris changes, diffraction would start mushing up the image as early as f/4 (and, in the red channel, as early as f/2.8!) By the time you got to f/11, the image would be a total mush of soft, fuzzy, out-of-focus nothingness. But by doing it this way, they avoid diffraction entirely down to about f/10. F/8 is pretty much diffraction-free. It's really clever engineering to avoid the serious side effects that could occur, from using such a small chip.

inqb8tr

Did you notice that AC90 also has unlimited battery, it is called charger? :)

tommy

You are right. But like I wrote for the GH2 I need a separate ND as well, and at least the AC90 built in "ND" works in most cases. And I still look forward to get a camera that has it both. If you find one, let me know ;-)

inqb8tr

@tommy

I was referring to GH2 for video, not stills. I totally agree that cameras like AC90, all-in-one packages (almost), are more suitable for general run and gun work, and documentary style, more less everything. That's like the basic fact. But I just wanted to point out that it is not in the same ballpark, GH2 is modular hacked beast that is pain in the ass to try and simulate camcorder workflow with. Just that. I think that your comparison (in the topic title) makes sense only cause we're here accustomed to GH2 look and thus we're able use it as a reference for other cameras image q, and such.

So, I just want to point out that when you say

is not the 'progress' I was hoping for

you might be on the wrong track, since these are two different branches, and not a single timeline.

It has a stepless ND and it is very good. (It gets "more ND" when diafragma is being closed)

Closing the aperture does not do the same thing as using nd's. Purpose of ND is to be able to use whatever aperture and shutter angle you want, to have the creative control over your image. That's the whole point.

PauloTeixeira

While I'm here I might as well post a couple of videos since I did get to purchase the camera long ago. Here's an un-boxing I did. I shot this with a GH2

And here's an event that I shot at the Revere Beach in Massachusetts. I did a little bit of grading in case someone's wondering.

Cameras such as the GH2/GH3 are good for some things and cameras such as the AC90 are good for other things. Both have strong points and weaknesses. I use both the GH2 and AC90 depending on what I'm shooting.

tommy

@inqb8tr

I started this topic, because I had the Gh2, and although everybody was so enthusiastic, it didn't work for me. (and believe me I tried everything, rigs, steadycams, tascam/ zoom audio)

Most of what I wrote here was before the AC90 was even out. (and I only tested it for 2 days) I now have it for a year and it is great. I was the one that planted my worries that it did not have a physical ND filter. But technology changes. It has a stepless ND and it is very good. (It gets "more ND" when diafragma is being closed) You can always put on a ND filter (or variable) if you still would need it. (this would also be the case with the GH2) I also thought before the lenshood could not be removed, but it can be.

I know a photo camera (GH2) isn't meant to do the same thing as a video camera. But everybody here on the forum is using it for video. I use both for video, and although the Gh2 has a better sensor (more film like), the AC90 is much more suitable for my needs: It is flexible, very steady, good audio, run and gun, also on automatic very good etc. Try to do that with a GH2. So perhaps it is has better IQ, but when your footage is shaky like hell, your audio sucks big, and the F stops are visible, you can't use your material at all. So it is nice, in controlled situations (studio, tripod etc)

What I find most frustrating is: In the 'old days' I only needed 1 camera and that was fine. Nowadays, even as technology has evolved, I need to: - built a whole bunch of equipment around a dslr, record audio separate and sync in editing OR
- work with 2 cameras at the same time. (which is what I mostly do.)

For me this is not the 'progress' I was hoping for. In a few years I will buy a new camera, and I hope by then, there is finally a camera for me:

A large sensor camera, (not too big) that has all the pros from a video camera, such as: very good stabilizing, perfect pro audio, flexible, good for run and gun, good automatic, preferable 1 lens to do everything. Of course I am willing to pay more for that.

inqb8tr

GH2 and this camera should not be compared, IMO this is great little cam, but GH2 is far superior to it in terms of IQ. That goes for any large(r) sensor interchangeable lens cameras. They are not meant to do same things, even though they can, but when you start using it out of its 'comfort zone' you're on your own. Hacking would only have the point if one could hack ND's into it. Otherwise, nice package. I had HMC150 for years, this is where those cameras go, smaller, lighter, cheaper. But no ND's.. it's like building XLR inputs without level knobs.

tommy

@PauloTeixeira thnx nice to know. it is not a huge upgrade though. (only pre rec).I think everyone would like his camera to perform a bit better. I sure have know idea how to 'hack', so perhaps you should aks vitaliy or one of the others, but i don't think there will be a (big) chance. But for the rest, you like the camera?

PauloTeixeira

The AC90 has recently received a firmware update.

Info: http://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/content/download/EN/ep2main/soft/ac90/ac90.htm

Place to download the firmware: http://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/content/download/EN/ep2main/soft/ac90_agree_e.htm

Instructions: http://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/content/download/EN/ep2main/soft/ac90/ac90verup_e.pdf

I would have loved for this firmware to get hacked to have higher bit rates but it almost seams like Panasonic might bring legal action. Did the GH2 firmware have similar wording as the AC90's firmware? If it did, Panasonic never really got anyone in trouble and so maybe hacking the AC90's firmware wouldn't make a difference. Regardless if it's a risk, you never know if cracking the AC90's firmware would be too complicated.

The file is called: UPDATE.HDC Maybe the ".HDC" will tell you if it's easy or not.

MikeLinn

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Review by Focus Numerique

http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1725/camescope-test-camescope-panasonic-ag-ac90-caracteristique-1.html

Meierhans

Just trying to help. Worked for me to match a HVX and 7D.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@Meierhans

I think it is good idea to make normal topic about such filter.

Meierhans

Check this out: http://www.mattroberts.org/MBR_Color_Corrector/

tommy

@Stiffla Sorry for the late reply. I don't have good suggestions. What I do: Record with both cameras 'flat' images and create some 'standard' collor correction for both, so they will match as good as possible. In the end, I put the whole timeline in a new layer and add filters/ effects over the total edit. Sorry, it are just different cameras

Stiffla

I am still trying to get the AG-AC90 image anywhere near a GH2. Any suggestions? I know that it is almost impossible, because they are such different cameras.

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