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Video/audio professionals are a***oles?
  • tonalttonalt

    I've been lurking to Black Magic forums. A lot of bug reports, responses are pretty rare (especially from BM staff). But the saddest thing, is that those professional color graders can be real (excuse me) a***oles. The only right way to do things is RAW, you got to have timecodes in all material, RTFM (almost 1000 pages) and blah blah.

    I've seen this phenomenon also in my country among video professionals. They e.g. really hate DSLR cameras. They have really bad attitude at the forums, that I'm really surprised that they still get gigs and make their living out of it.

    Or is it just that when they go to Internet, they feel like they are Gods and can do/say what ever they want.

    Luckily, this kind of attitude is really rare at P-V forums. Probably because so many hear are hobbyists.

    Have someone else noticed something similar?

  • 33 Replies sorted by
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Being asshole has nothing to do about being professional or video/audio professional. If someone became asshole - he is asshole, without relation to this qualities. :-)

  • tonalttonalt

    I make my living with something else. And it's extremely rare to find those assholes in my business. It's so unprofessional to troll at the forums with hobbyists, sometimes with your real name. Of course there are exceptions, but among video/audio professionals, it's definitely more common from what I have seen.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    It's so unprofessional to troll at the forums with hobbyists, sometimes with your real name.

    If you can't troll in real life, you troll at forums. In usual life most of this guys are afraid even to touch a fly.

  • thornthorn

    It's not just camera forums; spend a few years on 3D forums, and you'll see the same thing.

    Though to be honest, after spending a few years on a 3D forum - you WILL get to the point that you're tired of newbies ignoring Stickies and Search, endlessly asking "how do I make XYZ effect?"... especially when the effect they're asking about took a team of 10 people and 2 months of work. ;)

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Though to be honest, after spending a few years on a 3D forum - you WILL get to the point that you're tired of newbies ignoring Stickies and Search, endlessly asking "how do I make XYZ effect?"... especially when the effect they're asking about took a team of 10 people and 2 months of work. ;)

    Nothing new or forum specific. With time forum become like company of people who know each other for long, have their own habits and shared knowledge. In usual life it is always some strong barrier preventing new people to join such group. It is hard. On forums it is easy. Absence of real life communication (ability to see face and intonations) removes last barrier that is always present in usual communications.

  • thornthorn

    The only forums I've visited that I I haven't seen this sort of thing are related to Ferrari ownership and drumming. Maybe passion vs professional career also plays a part?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    The only forums I've visited that I I haven't seen this sort of thing are related to Ferrari ownership and drumming.

    I saw another very friendly forums. It also depends on owner and moderators team.

  • jleojleo

    Psychology Today: Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists

    by Jennifer Golbeck, Ph.D.

    In this month's issue of Personality and Individual Differences, a study was published that confirms what we all suspected: internet trolls are horrible people.

    Let's start by getting our definitions straight. An internet troll is someone who comes into a discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, it seems like there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

  • caveportcaveport

    Wow, I had no idea I was such a big asshole! Seriously though, as a pro who has spent my entire life working in the media biz, there are many non-pro people on forums who expect others to hand over their knowledge gained from years of working, when they have not read or researched for themselves. They want easy answers and quick fixes. Pro's generally are VERY hard working people who share information readily. Asking for basic information available in the manuals or other supplied documentation will generally get a curt response. It's not just on forums, it happens in real-life too. Lazy people don't get far in the media business, so I don't waste my time handing my knowledge to them. If I sound like the assholes mentioned by @tonalt then you need to ask 'What can I contribute?' rather than 'What can I get?'

  • RatLabProductionsRatLabProductions

    @Caveport

    Bang on!

  • caveportcaveport

    @tonalt Specifically for you: Blackmagic forums are for Blackmagic customers. Colourists are using DaVinci Resolve. They are discussing Resolve related professional workflows and issues, NOT hobbyist level comments like 'Why can't I do this? or Blackmagic product 'X' is lame because....' What you don't see are the years of hard work and impossible deadlines we meet as a part of our daily lives. I need to grade about 800 shots in each episode of a current project. I have 2 days. That's about 40 seconds per shot if I don't have a lunch break! I do a one hour show including resizing, tracking, blurs on vehicle license plates, shot replacements, round trip media management from Avid, fixing camera operator issues like focus, exposure & framing, and all client reviews and changes PLUS rendering and export for network and web delivery and client preview. I work 10-12 hours per day. I would suggest to everybody to not post on professional forums unless you can contribute something. If you are non-pro, you should be on appropriate forums, don't clog up pro forums with newbie posts.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Seriously though, as a pro who has spent my entire life working in the media biz, there are many non-pro people on forums who expect others to hand over their knowledge gained from years of working, when they have not read or researched for themselves.

    Yes, people expect others to share their knowledge. Including one gained via years of hard work. This is how people society works.

    Your attitude that newbies can be treated very differently and they somehow jump from newbies to professionals (I really do not know that this words mean exactly in this context) in their sleep are strange. If you see some "pro forum" where normal newbies are not welcomed and they somehow must go to special reservation it usually means that strong inner circle holds moderators positions and fully set policy, usually do not result in anything good :-)

    It must be always a balance and warm welcome to new guys. Very hard to do and requires proper people with different attitude.

  • DrDaveDrDave

    Why should they be different from anyone else? Some are; some are not: some are artists and some are professional schmoozers.

  • caveportcaveport

    I love to share my knowledge. I choose to share with people who will understand the concepts or technicalities of what I am saying. If the person asking has not done any research and/or can not understand why certain things are done in the professional business, then I advise them to go and educate themselves. I am NOT obliged to hand over my experience for free (with a smile) to people who don't have the basic understanding of the subject. There was a recent case of this kind of thing in these forums. A user thought that a simple extra grading tool would be of great benefit for him in Resolve. No matter how many responses he received by well-meaning posters, explaining why it was unnecessary and even counter-productive, he insisted that Blackmagic should include it because other software has it, and he would find it useful. It kind of proves a point; once someone has made up their mind about something it is VERY hard to communicate. No offence intended to the poster I referred to above. Keep your mind open and adapt. That's how I stay alive. If a software package is not perfect, I change the way I work. I don't complain to other media people. I complain to the software maker. If I need advice from other media people, I try to let them know what my level of experience is, to assist them in answering me.

    @Vitaliy I did NOT say or imply "Your attitude that newbies can be treated very differently and they somehow jump from newbies to professionals (I really do not know that this words mean exactly in this context) in their sleep are strange."

    To sum up: If you fill pro forums with questions like "Why can't they make it the way I think it should be?" you won't make any friends.

  • caveportcaveport

    I also resent the topic title. Especially in this wonderful Personal View site that Vitaliy has so generously provided for us. How would YOU feel about a topic title called: Amateurs & hobbyists are a**holes?

  • shianshian

    They say find whatever you're good at, and do it for a living. So....

  • TwitHerbTwitHerb

    I've encountered my share of rude people online, but they are far outnumbered by nice and helpful people across many of the camera related forums I frequent. However, I will say that there is one particular sound related forum which seems to have more than it's fair share of a**holes.

  • brianlbrianl

    I wouldn't say a$$holes. Most are pretty good about sharing knowledge. Guys that aren't willing to share knowledge probably are wasting their time on the forums. Why else go to forums but to share info? Blackmagic forum is especially crappy. Dreary atmosphere and unmotivated gururs..

  • mrbillmrbill

    I'm an industry 'pro' and I love dslrs. I've never felt like a God on any forum, although it's irritating when a hobbyist tells me the way something is - technical or creative. +1 on Caveport's input..

  • robertGLrobertGL

    EDIT: the media industry forums are full of internet a$$holes for some reason, but like Twitherb says, the a.holes are generally outnumbered by the helpful ones, and it depends on the moderation.

    I think the worst is when somebody has a real problem that relates to one thing, and nobody even bothers to respond

  • tonalttonalt

    @caveport I rarely ask newbie questions. But with Davinci Resolve, sometimes I have to. I first try to google first very hard, but it's still too uncommon software to get good results. Almost 1000 page manual is hard to use, especially when you are not sure what keyword to use.

    DaVinci Resolve chose free for all "Lite" route. In my opinion, it means that it's now tool for all - not only for those rich professionals.

    Perfect example of "professional" attitude: http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24618#p158319

    And "Hobbyist" attitude: http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24618#p158666

  • belfrymanbelfryman

    @tonalt Ripple Training just brought out a new training course for Resolve 11, I'll be getting it, sure it must make lots clear, I got the editing in Resolve 11 one and it was very good.

    http://www.rippletraining.com/categories/avid-adobe-davinci-courses/davinci-resolve-products/color-grading-in-davinci-resolve-11.html

  • belfrymanbelfryman

    It's just not that cheap.

  • caveportcaveport

    @tonalt Thanks for posting the links. I read the entire thread. It really highlights the communication problem when people have fixed attitudes. The 'pro' wants the camera manufacturers to adhere to 'pro' formats and make these new cameras easy to work with while the 'non pro' wants the software makers to adapt to lower end cameras that have great image quality. I don't see any issue with those posts at all. I think some 'non pro' people don't realise that 'pro's' must deal with ANY camera footage that is provided and we must build custom workflows FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL JOB!

    In your linked forum thread, people are complaining that Resolve does not support audio in a non-compliant mp4 format designed by Sony. Blaming Blackmagic seems a bit unfair.

    I have had many issues like this over the years, with Avid, FCP, Premiere, Smoke, FCPX, Resolve, Nuke, Media 100........ are you bored yet?

    The best way to approach 'pro' forums with issues is to ask for assistance rather than complaining. I get frustrated with things not working just like 'non pro's' do. The difference is in how I go about finding a solution. IMO it is the 'non pro's' in that discussion that had the fixed attitudes. This topic is itself an example of 'non pro' attitudes. I don't think you will find a forum thread started by a 'pro' that complains about 'non pro' assholes on forums.

    Thanks for keeping THIS thread polite!

  • discomandavisdiscomandavis

    +1 @caveport the links that @tonalt gave basically are a good example. The professional suggests transcoding as a solution for his problem, something I have to do daily as a professional colorist for broadcast and film. But the "newbie" (for lack of a better term), gets mad and calls this professionals advice "unnecessary", and goes on to boast about his hardware... wasted time during which he could have been transcoding and getting the job done... I think that humility and gratitude are the keys. I have been helped countlessly by forums, however I had a mentor who taught me that if I can't find an answer quickly online, then I should spend my time "being the solution", not begging for one.

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