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Panasonic GH5S GH5 S, 4K Video Edition
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  • "that damn IBIS is screwing me up wish they would remove it"

    @Scot

    Exactly my thought when we put a GH5 on a steadycam. IBIS ruined the smoothness of the shot by behaving weirdly trying to compensate the steadycam. It's probably great for wedding/travel/vlog/documentary handheld videos, but on a production that has the right tools (rail, steady, crane) it can be a nightmare. Same when you have motion, we shoot on a train that has a long corridor, it was on a tripod and for unexplained reason, when the train turned (and made that long one corridor bend which was really beautiful to make people appear/disappear from the shot by the bending of the train curve) it just acted crazy.

  • @Scot "It's just a simple fact that IBIS is very useful especially to the level of client buying these cameras. If they perceived it as such a problem they should have invented a way to lock down the sensor."

    No, they've said that they wanted the larger sensor in the GH5s... there isn't any room for the IBIS hardware regardless of locking it down or not... and I'd definitely rather have the former (larger sensor) than the latter. It's a different style of GH5... it's not for bloggers and random videos. It's more cinematographer/production orientated. IBIS is still too gimmicky and unreliable in certain situations like @GeoffreyKenner mentioned above.

    If you're using any kind of gimbal, steady-cam, drone... ect... you're not going to want the IBIS.

  • Not to be cynical, but the numbers don't suggest that Panasonic is catering to professionals. Real professionals account for a tiny fraction of sales. In fact, real professionals are often using high end cams with these as B cams, or using a whole variety of different things for different situations. The fact is, by removing the IBIS they are selling a camera that is cheaper to make and will need fewer repairs for more money.
    They could easily make a camera that had all the features we want, but they don't. They just string along model after model. And the fact is, Canon is just watching and doing basically nothing.

  • @DrDave "In fact, real professionals are often using high end cams with these as B cams"

    Yes... and now I can use (or approve the use) the GH5s along with Red or Alexa cameras for shoots.

    And again, like mentioned above... I don't always have access to a Red or Alexa (or don't always want one)... and if I'm doing a personal music video project or something... I LOVE having a smaller camera like the GH5 with a high-quality codec. Now it's even better that I don't have to deal with the IBIS messing up on gimbals, drones, or my steady cam.

    Plus, the GH5 still exists and is cheaper... so what exactly is anti-IBIS angst coming from? Just use the GH5. The GH5s is for specific shooters.

  • If IBIS is a problem in those exceptional cases can't you turn it off? The only time that would not work is when your beating that camera up to the point the magnetic field can't keep the sensor centered (a truly extraordinary use). That being said again if it's such a problem why can't Panasonic create a lock down? As to the no room for IBIS that also sounds like an excuse. It's the classic marketing joke we designed it that way it's not a short coming it's a feature. Guess you can figure it's not the solution I'm looking for. I like Panasonic I'm not beating on them I'm challenging them there is a difference.

  • Yes... and now I can use (or approve the use) the GH5s along with Red or Alexa cameras for shoots.

    And again, like mentioned above... I don't always have access to a Red or Alexa (or don't always want one)... and if I'm doing a personal music video project or something... I LOVE having a smaller camera like the GH5 with a high-quality codec. Now it's even better that I don't have to deal with the IBIS messing up on gimbals, drones, or my steady cam.

    Plus, the GH5 still exists and is cheaper... so what exactly is anti-IBIS angst coming from? Just use the GH5. The GH5s is for specific shooters.

    Exactly

    "posers" or "people who are maybe shooting something different than what you're shooting." One of the two.

    And people who have needs that are not IBIS are also "people who are maybe shooting something different than what you're shooting."

    Not to be cynical, but the numbers don't suggest that Panasonic is catering to professionals. Real professionals account for a tiny fraction of sales.

    So by that logic Panasonic shouldn't make say an EVA1 or Varicam because the sales would just be a tiny fraction of a Panasonic G80??

    The fact is, by removing the IBIS they are selling a camera that is cheaper to make

    That only can be a more than big enough reason to justify the removable of IBIS.

    The GH5S is already the most expensive MFT camera ever, what if including IBIS (if it is even technically possible in the GH5S) meant the total price is then over $3K?? Imagine how well that would have gone down!

    The whining and complaining over the price would be nothing next to the complaints that high price would generate.

  • This post can help you to perceive if you really need IBIS or if you can live without it:

    https://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/244938#Comment_244938

  • @Scot "As to the no room for IBIS that also sounds like an excuse. It's the classic marketing joke we designed it that way it's not a short coming it's a feature."

    No, the sensor is bigger. The extra size would require a redesign (potentially allot more expensive). They made a trade-off for a larger, smaller-pixel, more light efficient sensor. It's not a marketing joke. Do you really think they could just drop a significantly larger sensor into an IBIS designed for a smaller size? That's just not very plausible.

    @IronFilm posted a great video about it above. Worth a watch for the visual examples!

  • They shouldn't have released this at all without IBIS.

  • They shouldn't release any camera with IBIS.

  • Well, personally I don't really care about debating IBIS, but, ideally, being able to switch it on and off so its "really" off is what I would consider not only practical but desirable. Then switch it on if you need it. There's a lot of super high end gear that has a gyro in it that runs even if you turn it off, and I've seen this gear on some really high end sets. I don't think ppl think twice about it in many situations. Turning it off is just engineering. Simpler than designing the IBIS, for sure, to make a switchable version. Remember lock down mirrors? Those were the days when that was what ppl worried about. Want five axis stabization with a lockdown mode, well, hey, Arri makes one, so why not Panasonic. And Arri makes great stuff. Andthey aren't making those systems just so no one will use them.

    @Ironfilm re: the sales--I'm not sure who's buying this gear, but I would guess that a fair portion of the market is for serious amateurs, even for EVA1, etc., and a lot of ppl starting out can't always afford the high end gear. I mean, whose buying this stuff? Interesting question.
    Look at Blackmagic, it isn't expensive, it's very pro oriented, great quality, but they really don't target the mass market. They could be way higher in sales with just a few bells and gizmos, and a consumer friendly codec or two. Photo stacking, whatever.... Anyway, I'm happy if I can buy a six pack of cameras for cheap. Half of those have IBIS, half don't--the "near" cams are completely silent for close work, and the "far" cams are completely steady with a telephoto. A lot of my camcorders over the years had IBIS plus in the lens running all the time, and this was sold as a "pro" feature. A lot of those camcorders are used once a year for parties, but some of them made some great indie films.

    Not sure I will see a difference with the "s" model, but I will of course rent it and test it for myself. After all, you can find any opinion on the web if you keep looking--it's fuzzy, it's sharp, etc. So I'll try it out.

    Plus, who knows with the updates? I thought the G85 was crap when it came out, but when they fixed the IBIS it tuned into a really amazing camera with just a firmware update.

    PS, I have to say I loved my 12mm on the GH2, so the wide sensor does get brownie points. Don't know why they went away from it, just get an Xacto knife and chop down the APSC from the Sony 6500.

  • @Ironfilm I watched the whole Caleb video and there's no GH5s in the video, I mean, he reviewed the camera without the actual camera.

  • I'm not sure who's buying this gear, but I would guess that a fair portion of the market is for serious amateurs, even for EVA1, etc., and a lot of ppl starting out can't always afford the high end gear. I mean, whose buying this stuff? Interesting question.

    I know someone who'd just finished first year of film studies at uni and purchased an EVA1! :-o

    and a consumer friendly codec or two.

    ProRes LT isn't friendly enough?

  • @Ironfilm it's easy for us, but having done a bunch of short courses I can tell you a lot of people don't know what it is. The software sure has gotten simpler; I vaguely remember not being able to play Prores files in Premiere, but I started on version 1.5. 1,5 appeared after 6.5 or something really weird, Long time ago. Must have been CS3 which came after version 2 which was really 8.
    Another issue for the stuff I do, which is events, is that ppl have an issue with raw or prores if filming a long event. It's tough to handle that much data in a multicam array if you don't have experience with really large amounts of data.
    Re EVA1 I'd consider renting it, would be interesting to test it against the Sony 6500 and the GH5. 6500 pulls a lot of detail, I'm always amazed by that. GH5 has some great options. 14 stops DR would be great if true....and if the stops are in the usable range which is another issue with DR.

  • Gotta love PB epic rant against lack of stabilizers
    Which is right after his rant against the lack of it in the GH5s

  • Gh5 s lacks detail in all tests I've seen. It was expected since it has less native resolution and downscaling to 4k from sensor in gh5 gives better detail

    It would be interesting to see more resolution charts and how much the s line lacks behind.

    The yellow tint is also very much present on Gh5s. Though it would not be a problem to implement both footages and intercut them.

    I'm really close to buy new gear this time around. Eva-1 it is extremely detailed 4k, it is OK, but C200 kicks it ass un low light and color implementation, but it has this shit type code option and raw is not the answer for every take you do. Sony fs5 fs7 it is a pain in the ass to make color correction for any Sony log profile and lacks constant slow motion, Ursa mini Pro is still in year 2010 in its iso range and sensor implementation.

    Every time I see this Gh5s footage and compare it to other bigger cameras and heavier equipment, make me wonder why I started with m4/3 in the beginning. Light weight with robust implementation of codes, versatility, only bad low light. Now the bad lowlight is gone. 10 bit 422 clean image and v-log on it.

    The last B&h broadcast about gh5s showed me what could be donde and how much light it get gathered by this sensor. It is a clear indicator of the power of the sensor

  • @endotoxic

    Lack of detail is due to noise reduction. By looks of it, noise reduction has temporal aspect to it that allows for less noise vs previous in camera NR , but as the expense of details. Its the same technique that A7s series use.

    If you look at RAW noise on stills output at same ISO , you can see completely different characteristics. Its the same with A7 series.

    Higher up ISO it becomes mushy as detail and noise both get compressed. Thats the trade off, obviously detail loss is much less obvious and acceptable for viewer in video vs more noisy image.

  • @endotoxic @Bernie How far can NR be turned off?

  • Thats the trade off, obviously detail loss is much less obvious and acceptable for viewer in video vs more noisy image.

    Obviously it is that software engineers had been forced to do to show "big advantages of large pixels". :-) And solution was same.

    Actually it also explain why you never have any honest option to turn it off.

  • @endotoxic The fs5 has an option to shoot 120 FullHD continuous 422 10bit internally, in addition to buffer 240p FullHD 422 10bit. No camera beats that.

    With an Atomos Inferno you can record 240p FullHD continuous 10bit 422, plus 4K DCI 60p 10bit 422.

    And the auto ND is magic. In Resolve I have no trouble getting good colors from log. HLG is even easier. And I prefer the colors to those from Pansonic Vlog.

  • @endotoxic @Bernie I don't know if it's been mentioned here before... but to my eyes... both the GH5 and GH5s look better without Panasonic lenses. The footage with native lenses just seems crunchier and more compressed, no idea why. I thought it might just be user related... in that people without native lenses might be into dialing the images in more (turning everything off)... but I see it in EVERY video with Panny lenses. Maybe they're extra high-contrast or something? Or... do native lenses trigger extra NR somehow? I dunno...